User talk:JonBuck/Tall Tales

Nice to see more work being done in this universe, it's an interesting setting. Looking forward to seeing one of those dolphins; I'm currently on a mermaid kick so I'm curious what their structure is like. :) Bryan 13:56, 23 December 2007 (EST)

A couple things on this latest update. First, thanks for the cameo! I wonder what Frasier saw of me though. Going amongst the Changed, I would be dressing my gender. As a rat, I'm also only four and a half feet tall. Also, when it comes to this new aspect of TG, that new acquaintances see the new gender, is that something that is only now starting to happen in 07, or has that always been the case? --MatthiasRat 17:34, 2 February 2008 (EST)

I'll make those changes. As for the "New Acquaintances", that is new for 07, and it's a direct result of having so many furs in a small location. But it's an attempt to make the "processing power" less of an issue for our little simulated world. It could spread to other TGed furs, I'm not sure.--Buck 19:17, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Frankly, I think the "New Acquaintances" schtick is a mistake. The RDF makes people see furries as whatever they used to be before they Changed; if getting Changed a second time alters the 'default image' that mundanes see, how come it's only the gender that might be involved? I mean, why doesn't Chris (he/she of many forms) appear as any of a number of species/gender combinations, depending on exactly who's looking at him/her, and exactly when they first met Chris?

As to processing power in the simulated world, I just can't see that as being a valid concern. First off: Given that we're talking about a post-Singularity cloud of computronium, the available processing power is (or might as well be...) infinite, to all intents and purposes. Second off: If processing power really is a concern, the 'New Acquaintances' schtick makes matters worse. The whole point of the RDF is that it supplies a 'fake image' for mundanes to see, right? Well, what burns more CPU cycles -- one fake image that's seen by all mundanes, or two fake images plus the necessity to keep track of which mundanes ought to see which fake image?

Like I said, I think the 'new acquaintances' schtick is a mistake -- at absolute best, it's an answer in search of a problem, and at worst, it's an unnecessary quirk that makes the Paradise setting more complexificationated without providing any benefits on the side. But if you're going to run with it anyway, I suggest that it be the result of some kind of unforeseen interaction(s) between the 'furry virus' and the 'antivirus shield' that's providing the RDF. Maybe the 'furry virus' has actually mutated into different strains (see also: "polymorphic viruses"); maybe things are going wonky because the 'virus' acquired some code from the 'shield' -- or vice versa; maybe something else entirely. [shrug] Cubist 07:40, 5 February 2008 (EST)

You're probably right about the conservation-of-cpu idea. I'll go ahead and use some interaction between furry virus/RDF antiviral instead. There's no reason why the furry virus has to stay the same. Since it's a sentient thing itself, it'd be looking for ways around the RDF and antivirals. Somehow it managed to change the RDF-presented gender of the furry TGers, intending to both mess their lives up and give the medical community something to puzzle over. So ROB responds with ID card changes. As the "polymorph virus" continues to wreak havoc, ROB will be forced to act more and more openly.

The main reason for this addition is to make things more interesting for the writers and characters.

Still, all this is building towards that normal people are going to figure out there's Something Wrong.--Buck 16:03, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Later: Suppose the virus is screwing with the RDF by changing the human gender the TGed furs appear as. One of two things can happen here. Like PD, they could just dump their old lives entirely and start anew. This would put less strain on the RDF because it no longer has to maintain two phantom images, just one. Also, computer records can be changed. Eirik suggested that if they completely adopt their new lifestyles that even their friends would see them as newly male/female. On the other hand, victims with very established careers (like BD) would have problems.

As for any combinations of species/gender that would happen to folks like CM and JF, perhaps when that does happen it's a sign that the RDF is under imminent failure.--Buck 16:53, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Even Later: I wanted to do something like this from the beginning. My alternative was for a just TG image flip and have the victims deal with it like in most TG fiction. This group is currently isolated, though it'll spread to all the others the next year. ROB would not go as far as to change memories (It has a moral issue against doing that). The middle ground is Family/Friends/Coworkers still see the male image and new people see the female one. I suppose that's a little over the top. But I like that last scene too much to make any changes. --Buck 18:31, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Final Decision: After discussing it on IRC, this is going to stay as I've written it. But it's also a temporary measure. It will spread to all the TGed furs in 2008. And in 2009, their human ghost will flip according to the new real gender of the victim. There will be well over four million furs that year. There will be other developments during that time as well that will start to compromise the integrity of the RDF (perhaps we start getting some furs in high levels of government). But that's the plan right now. --Buck 19:21, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Quick question related to this. I'm planning on having CM transfered to another plant in the area after the Philly con. Now all of her coworkers see her as female. August 08 she changes to male Rottweiler. What gender will they see Chris as then? --MatthiasRat 17:58, 6 February 2008 (EST)

I'm not sure, since your character's situation is unique. I think there's some flexibility. What works best for the story you're trying to tell? --Buck 19:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Well, I had the idea that CM has accepted being female, and then goes back to male, but everyone still sees her as female. Now CM gets the opposite TG effect, being male while everyone sees her as female! CM has to get used to being male again in the process of being treated female. --MatthiasRat 21:34, 8 February 2008 (EST)

Nice update, I like how you did the scene you said was inspired by kaceys pic.

--Devin 01:18, 4 February 2008 (EST)

RDF TG ghost alternative

Okay, Cubist. How's this for an alternative?

Instead of the "new acquaintances" Field, what happens is that the human "ghost" TGs. It now reflects physical gender to everyone, family, friends, regardless. This is a direct effect of the "polymorph virus", which is slightly more advanced than the Cloud we live in. So ROB can't directly counter it. Instead, it quickly edits in the female versions' lives, but without altering memories. What it does end up altering are the spouses of married folks. If they have kids, one of them has to be female. And they might even go furry in the process. And regular humans end up "forgetting" what gender that person actually was.

Call it a "reality shift", because in a way it is. And it's a very imperfect kludge because the ROB running the place isn't quite as smart as the virus. The question is if this would spread to all the other TGed, or it's just limited to the baker's dozen who were at this Con.

Is this version better or worse than what I have? Or should I just alter what I have to this version so it can be judged in story context? I need to discuss this with Matthias, also. It's a big change and he's already made some plans. But it also means that things are consistent across the board. Everyone sees BD as Brittany Derringer. --Buck 01:29, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Having it be something that just happened to the ones who were at the Con could be good, making it a harbinger of things to come without necessarily throwing a curve ball at the entire setting yet. Eventually there'll be enough furries that these sorts of RDF failures will become inevitable all over the place, but right now there are still few enough that it only happens when the concentration becomes extreme. Bryan 01:58, 12 February 2008 (EST)

My plans are changeable, Jon. However, I would like to discuss this with you on IRC sometime this week so I can decide whether I think this would be good story-wise or not. I also will need details clarified. For instance, when MP said his husband changed last night, what exactly happened to his husband. And what would or could happen to CM's wife? I'm sure I'll have more questions after I've had some time to ponder this. --MatthiasRat 05:04, 12 February 2008 (EST)

What do I think of this new proposal? Three things:

One: Having the 'ghosts' shift around at all is a mistake. (yes, I still think so)

Two: If 'ghost'-shifting is a gratuitous layer of extra complexity spot-welded onto the setting, this proposal is an additional, thicker layer of gratuitous complexity spackled on top of the first layer.

Three: It's your mistake to make, if you're bound and determined to make it (which all evidence to date suggests you are).

Sorry to be a buzz-kill. Not being into TG myself, I don't really have a dog in this fight (if you'll pardon the expression). But, you know, since you asked me... Cubist 07:49, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Well, I do respect your opinion. I didn't expect you'd really give me a full thumbs up, but I was hoping to at least be more consistent in your eyes. Oh well. You seem to think that this different version is "thicker" than the first, so I'm going to leave the original version unchanged. --Buck 12:02, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Temporary page deleted. Original stands. --Buck 12:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Some thoughts on the 2005-2010 period

I mentioned this on IRC once, but it might be good to get it down on Talk too so to speak.

IMO, from what we've been writing and discussing, I think this '05+ period is where we're starting to see a change in the focus of ROB and the underlying framework of the story.

Before then, most of the efforts of the controlling force have been in containing, isolating, and trying to stop the Change (the Corruption of our simulation) with minimal damage to the rest of the simulation.

Now though, as we approach 2010 and beyond, the number of Changed and the number of Known are ballooning, making containment and isolation more and more difficult, and the damage is more and more irreversable.

So I suspect ROB's efforts are beginning to change. He/She/It is still trying to stop it, but at the same time they are also starting to look into what they can to make the transition easier, experimenting in semi-isolated groups to see what may work and what won't (And yes, TallTalesCon would probably count as a somewhat isolated group in ROB's Point of View)

In the years to come, I suspect/anticipate we'll begin to see more and more 'experiments' happening in the world as ROB tries to figure out how best to ease the transition to the new norm. (Automatically adjusting records for TG's, letting parents see changed underage children, restoring food and fuel sources, etc....)

Just remember that ROB's main goals are to reverse the changes, and to make the transition as smooth as possible without damaging the scenario. So he seems very adverse to changing the past, unless it is absolutely necessary. ie He may update biometric records and current passports and ID cards to reflect a Change'd person's new form, but he won't change school records or birth certificates or similar 'old' records unless absolutely needed.

With regards to the TG discussion on going, I'm thinking that the 'new acquaintance' rule might be the better route. It is less disruptive overall, since 99% of the time (remember the rule on Stats Creation. :P ), any two people talking about/to a third probably won't really notice too much if one thinks the person is male, and the other thinks the person is female. (Unless they are talking about the person's appearance). TG's trying to stay 'normal' may want to try to start going by more unisex names though. ( Chris, Jo/Joe and Alex could probably pull it off. Brandon, Mindy and Derek, less well). Of course when appearance does come up and/or the two people realize they're seeing the same person differently, all bets are off.

Just my own thoughts on the matter.

--Jetfire 09:05, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Oil Discoveries and other considerations

I know the purpose of the big oil discoveries (since we've talked about it before), but you may want to bump the new Canadian fields to be under the existing tar sands. (ie Northern Alberta/Southern Yukon/Northwest Territories, maybe put a new field in Baffin island too). Putting the fields in "Southern Canada" (assuming you mean Southern Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba) puts them right smack dab in the middle of Canada's Bread Basket, which would mean you'd be shifting one problem for another.

The other problem being the food supply. I read once (I think it was mentioned in passing in one of Stirling's "Dies the Fire" books) that Humanity is 2 square meals away from barbarianism. As long as the food is on the table, people can handle most anything. Interrupt that chain though, and chaos follows.

By bumping oil production in stable areas (North America, and I assume similar areas like the North Sea, and Australia), you can insure that the food can still get to us, but you haven't really done much to insure it continues to be produced. If you start looking at the food you eat nowadays, especially off-season food, you'll find a lot of it comes from the seas off South East Asia, or farms in South America and South Africa and similar areas.

ROB might want to start tweaking the North American and European food chain a bit; increasing soil depths and restoring worn out fields to increase their yields, as well as slowly ramping up aquatic stocks off old fishing/harvesting grounds like the Bay of Fundy, the Alaskan coasts, and especially the Grand Banks.

Also, instead of having a 1-2 punch of major field discoveries + a genegineered solution, you may want to have the genetic breakthrough be a bacteria/coral method of locking in the Carbon and similar environmental clean up methods which may also have the potential be tweekable to take CO2 and water and start building oil/petroleum products from it. As is, the 1-2 punch you described would most likely put already battered markets (Oct 2007 is the heart of the mortgage meltdown period) into freefall.

Anyways, those are just some thoughts I had on it.

--Jetfire 14:56, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Putting the new oil in southern Alberta also gives Calgary a major boost, which as an Edmontonian I am legally required to object to. :) If ROB's able to simply boost the amount of oil that there is underground, I don't think that a genetically engineered supplement is actually all that necessary. And worrying about CO₂ is probably even less necessary - we're going to be going through such a societal disruption soon that minor environmental issues are unlikely to be a big problem, and ROB can probably just zap away the excess if it's concerned about such things.

As for food, perhaps that can be eased a bit by the transformations themselves. Leave the people who become carnivore morphs capable of a human-style diet, since meat's harder to come by, but make the herbivore-morphs able to digest plant matter that they wouldn't normally have been able to. Bryan 15:44, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Good point about the environmental impact. Probably boosting existing/creating a few new reserves will be sufficient to get through the sociatal upheaval until things get back to normality and development can pick up again.

As for the food, I've always been treating the changed as still having a mostly human diet, maybe with a wider range of what would be palatable. (eg Joey cruching the sunflower seeds, shells and all). Even the more carnivorous types would probably have a bigger range of acceptable foods than what we usually have (eg bones/bone marrow may increasingly become a part of a carnivorous Change's diet)

The problem isn't really about the type of food though, it is the amount of food the First World consumes. As a Marketplace ep last year discovered, even the food that's labeled "Made in Canada" may not be made from food that comes from Canadian sources. Even stuff you think should be fully produced up here may not be. (eg some PC ice creams, the main ingrediants were shipped in from places like the States or South Africa or India. Highlander Frozen Fish products may be packaged in Louisburg, NS, but the fish itself was often caught off Japan or China or India and shipped to Halifax and trucked to Cape Breton for the processing, etc...)

So if ROB is looking to maximize stability in First World nations, he/she/it would probably need to do things to make sure the First World nations that can, are able to produce as much as possible locally. ie Restoring depleted fish stocks, boosting North American, European, Australian, New Zealand, Japanese and similar country's food productions, and doing it early enough that they can start taking advantage of the new material before it becomes needed. (Restored Grand Banks are no good if all your fishermen are still working the oil fields in Alberta. :P )

--Jetfire 16:30, 17 February 2008 (EST)

I imagine that ROB can more easily do these things where people won't directly observe them. Hence the new oil finds, and perhaps I can put the fish stock replenishing as early as the mid-90s so it doesn't look too suspicious. I'll ponder the oil discoveries, though. More overt would be old fields being "reset" to the filled state. Someone noticing oil oozing out of a well that was capped ten years ago because the field was dry.

Soil regeneration is another "act of ROB" that would look rather overt. But as the changes accelerate, maintaining the lives within becomes more important than any "Prime Directive". I imagine our simulated world as an incubator for intelligent life rather than the frozen archive depicted in Darwinia.

--Buck 16:44, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Restoring old fields that have been 'resting' and keeping fields from fully draining would likely be the easiest ways to keep them active on the sly. Geologists may notice that the fields are going longer than they should, and be puzzled by it, but it would probably cause fewer ripples than creating new fields out of nothing (as you pointed out).

As for restoring the food supply, it depends on when ROB starts. If he does it early enough, he can do it gradually and it'd be classified as the conservation methods "finally working". If the Grand Bank Cod supplies were suddenly restored to pre-Columbus levels in a year it'd be noticeable. But a resurgeance over the 2000's likely wouldn't be flagged as suspicious.

--Jetfire 17:47, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Im not sure about putting them in southern alberta either...

I've seen them using what we call 'Thumpers' at least a few times just around my home town that use sound waves to map out the size and extent of oil deposits before any drilling is done. I wasn't sure on the exact tech but I know just 'exploring' for oil is a high cost and risk industry. For existing mapped oil wells to start producing more oil(the derricks or pump jacks would more than likely notice changes in the pressure of oil coming out of the wells.) especially on the levels where the oil companys would have to make any heavy readjustments to their expected revenues.

But thats just my problem with the idea of adding onto the volume of 'Existing' drilled wells. New wells are being mapped out in southern alberta almost constantly. Hell just last year they set up a derrick and drilled a new well right on the pasture of my dads farm that they had just explored seven years ago.

I wish I'd read this earlier today, I could have asked my dad while I was visiting if he's ever had a well start producing more oil than expected. He's been working rigs since he was sixteen. >.<--Devin 19:52, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Heh! I just remembered something that might work even better. Just recently the premier for alberta increased the oil royaltys that the province will be recieving from the industry. Now this wont affect big oil all that much but there has been worry about the smaller companys who are having trouble making ends meet with how expensive it already is to operate.

The Bakken oil fields(North Dakota and montana) have recently had new surveying done that estimates the oil reserves to be even larger than those in Alaska and the reserves also stretch up into southern saskatchewan. What some people are thinking is that the smaller companys will pack up for southern saskatchewan to hit these reserves.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/bakken-oil-production/613

I nominate the Montana, Dakota, Saskatchewan area as being the place for ROB to put 'new' oil. :) --Devin 20:17, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Just one last thought, I've never seen oil drilling to cause any problems for farmers. Just the opposite in fact, to drill for oil a company needs to pay a farmer for the right to drill, ussually that pay off is in the seventy thousand dollar and up range and the actual derrick site and access road only takes up about 1/20th the land area of an average cattle pasture so often you'll see cows grazing just a stones throw away from where a rig crew is getting drilling done. After the drilling is done the only thing left is the pump jack itself and these are barely noticeable on a field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pump_jack_animation.gif --Devin 20:34, 17 February 2008 (EST)

I doubt that the Bakken oil deposits are anywhere near as large as those sites claim, else we would've heard about them long ago. But in the worldsim they would fit the bill. At any rate, I'll keep this in mind and I may edit a few things. There's an element of redundancy between the two Big Discoveries, but call it ROB covering its figurative tail. --Buck 02:37, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Editing comments

Just some comments on it as I reread it again

• For some reason this section keeps jumping out at me as awkward. I think I'm having a hard time visualizing the actions:

BD reflexively folded her arms across her breasts. Unlike Jerome and Tara, her sex had changed as well. But due to the Reality Distortion Field the woman still saw a short, goateed man dressed in the same outfit BD was wearing. The woman shared her Canadian accent. "Edmonton," BD said.

The lynx swallowed awkwardly. Thankfully, the line started moving before she needed to reply, interrupting them as the Canadian girl started rummaging in her purse for a pair of cat ears.

• With DL's introduction, you may want to flesh out her clothing description a bit. In one part it sounds like she's in full woman's wear, in another it almost sounds like she might just have normal clothing but a bra, and the bra was causing the issues.

• The flow seems a bit off in this section:

"This is so surreal," Tara said, repressing a giggle at someone walking around in a rather elaborate fox suit. His so-called "furless lackey" - the person who walks with a fursuiter and fends off trouble and troublemakers - was anything but, and a vulpine herself. The red vixen had to work even harder to repress her giggles, but couldn't resist a very human smile. "What goes on in people's heads?"

• "No Humans Allowed" feels out of place here with the flow

"Time for the meeting," Tara said, tugging on her lover's elbow. Other furs were starting to drift in the Main Ballroom's direction for the invitation-only event, laughably called "Orientation". As if the last two months hadn't been.

No humans allowed.

Jerome and Tara were two of the first to arrive, with one of the cougars checking their invitations. He politely didn't smile, and gestured at a number three on his nametag. Three years since his change! There were only a tenth as many furs the day he changed compared to Jerome.

• Are the quotes needed around Red Shetland here?

"Red Shetland" perked her ears. "Oh, really? Do you have a better explanation?"

• Somewhat rough flow here:

People immediately started to leave the room, even as more leapt up on stage to restrain the angry desperate man--or former woman, now that Jerome saw his clothing. Because as the cussing continued, he broke down into sobs. "Oh shit... oh shit... oh shit..."

• "So What?" is a question, not a statement ( I think)

The cat-man gave him a nasty look, grinning smugly like only a feline can. "So what. I was worse than he was before I ended up this way. Mind your own business, venison."

Similarly, it should be "There are" or maybe "There're" (which isn't a real word I don't think, but I know I've used it in speech myself. :) ) not "There's"

"There's assholes everywhere

Gotta head home now, will probably post more later when I get to the rest, if you want. :)

--Jetfire 16:03, 20 February 2008 (EST)

About The Poor Schmuck In Sheboygan...

I'm a bit confused about Red Shetland's comments regarding the earliest Changed. I initially though Red's "I was the third" line meant she was the third Changed ever, but there would only have been three total that year, so why does she think there was a fourth? I then thought maybe she meant she was from Year 3, and the "two foxes, me, and probably some poor schmuck in Sheboygan" were the four from Year 3. But then MatthiasRat's "Model Building" implies that Red is Number Three, and now I'm confused again.

I'm a mathemathical moron, so maybe I'm missing something? MarianLH 14:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

She was a Year 2 Changed, since two changed that year (making three furs total). She calls herself the third because she's also the first non-fox. --Buck 19:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)