Talk:Three Minds 2.0

What was he using to pretend was his ship before the change hit?

--Alex Warlorn 10:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Good question. It was going to be the pendant, but that was superseded by the other use. I was going for the whole 'essential part of the character excuse for the ship.'JoharaGuardian 10:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I have been going through other stories regularly for plot tie ins and so forth. You mentioned somewhere about running into GNE. I found a section of that story that kind of covers Johara I think; She also suspected there of being at least one person changed so that they could alter reality at quite a fundamental level (almost the power of a god or goddess?), and people equipped with magical and technological artefacts of immense power. But, so far she couldn't pin-down exactly who or what they all might be. Which fits how Johara's magic system works. :)JoharaGuardian 10:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Remember the poor poor angel fish character from The End? Water would be a vital part of their character but they didn't get any and died. --Alex Warlorn 04:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I edited the first chapter to include ship models and a book model. That should fix that problem. The Dancer is just too important for were I want to take the story. This is a pretty flexible setting though and it wont break so I am satisfied. JoharaGuardian 07:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

There are currently three 'homes' for Xanadu victims as it stands now. Project X for those the government either rounded up or employed. Real Stark Enterprises or rather Eric Winters own personal retreat he's set up for victims of the event for victims who have no desire for their talents to be used or abused by those with authority. And finally Sly Fox's hotel which is meant as a safe zone for Xanadu victims who are simply too weird or strange to function within normal society. --Alex Warlorn 16:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Who is to say that there can only be 3 'homes' for victims or that any particular home has a monopoly on a particular kind of victim? There were 15,000 victims. Just 2-3% of that total would barely be noticeable and still be in the triple digits. JoharaGuardian 03:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Could you remove mermaids, dragons, from the list please? Unless it's a major part of your story. Dragons seem to have form a nitch for themselves in the rocky mountains. And mermaids are being covered by another author.

I can edited it to be less specific such as just mythical creatures, but again I am not say all Dragons and all Mermaids. There is plenty of wiggle room here I think.JoharaGuardian 03:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

"The talking garbage can agreed to come as did a giant feather duster" Sound like Sly's alley. The power of the The Script seems to guide such weirdo victims to Sly's place.

I will be honest. I hated Sly so only read one of those stories. So I know nothing of the Script or his apartment except what you have posted. It almost sounds like you are saying that all weirdo victims Have to seek sanctuary with Sly.JoharaGuardian 03:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

“Of course, but who said they could possibly stop me?”

A Silver-Age Superman. Green Lantern (who didn't read about the yellow weakness or need to recharge the ring before his change). Dr. Strange Sorcerer supreme. Gods of Egypt (oh yeah, haven't written that yet, never mind).

A good indication if a character is overpowered in a Urban Fantasy setting IMHO is if they couldn't be stopped if they wanted to conquer the world. Characters with this kind of power who strut their stuff come across as annoying to readers IMHO. For instance, Sly can't do ANYTHING that bends the rules of reality unless it's for the sake of humor from what I can tell.

There are already characters in the Xanadu setting that can destroy the world. Vegeta is a prime example. GNE is another example.

Seriously, saying a line like that is ASKING for the fates to have someone stop or mess with you just to squash your ego. REMEMBER! For a story this long, it needs: conflict, struggle, or thrill. IMHO.

Yes it is an arrogant line, but it is followed by( “I will not reveal all I can do, but let me say that even the superpowered victims of this Event would be hard pressed to stop me if I were determined to leave,” Johara replied.) Hard pressed doesn't imply impossible just really difficult. I would welcome any suggestions that could give conflict and such.JoharaGuardian 03:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

For the record though, this IS much better than the original version in many areas.

I'll admit maybe I'm being hypocritical since MewTwo is a character I plan to write eventually, but given how much the rules changed with the introduction of steel and dark types and giving bug-types more advanced moves . . .

At any rate, just be careful. A good conflict could be simply that his magic and technology due to being from conflicting origins and interpretations of the same character CAN'T be used in tandem or in combination.

This sort of thing can work in a short story. But this is a novella. It needs something to keep the reader curiosity over what happens next and UNCERTAIN over what happens next for the reader. I don't mean random plot twists that come out of nowhere with no foreshadowing. I just mean that predictable doesn't work for longer stories. IMHO. I REALLY REALLY wish someone else could step in here so I'd know if I was filling your head with nonsense! --Alex Warlorn 17:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying you got bored reading it? If nothing else it has gotten the attention of your inner critic lol Right now I don't know were this story will go, but it feels like I am just setting the stage it is just a slow process before things are ready for problems to crop up. Consider this: I intend to create a very secure sanctuary. As you said it practically asks for someone to mess with you. Would that not in itself created conflict? How many 'evil' types or even hero types do you think would feel it necessary just to try the defenses of the place? The lure of the magic and technology that the island would have would be very strong. Heck some nut job country could even try to nuke it. There are lots of possibilities.JoharaGuardian 03:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Let me read it over the weekend and I'll help if I can.--Alveric 19:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I did some relatively minor editing. I made the beings that were going with me less specific in terms of species and tried to bulk up the reasons why Those particular beings were going to my sanctuary and not one of the others. JoharaGuardian 13:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I promised to read and make comments, here they are. First feel free to disregard anything I say. I'm an amateur like you. Your presentation and command of the language is very good. You present a lot of complex concepts in an understandable fashion. You have a future in this. Since you've read at least some of my stories, you know that they are more character than plot driven (if you find a plot in any of my stories let me know). So I'm going to concentrate on characterization. Johara comes across as a bit cold and humorless. That's not a bad thing, look at Spock. There is risk involved in a character like that, however. We all want people to read and enjoy what we write, it's what drives us (certainly not money). One thing that makes people want to read fiction is empathy for the characters, people must care about them. The reader must care about Johara and want her to succeed. If they do that, all else is forgiven. You should let some 'humanity' peek through Johara's reserve. It was Nimoy's skill as an actor that allowed him to do this without destroying the character's integrity. Consider it a challenge, not a flaw. Add secondary characters. The 300 survivors who accompany Johara, provide a great opportunity. Go ahead and go into detail about what they are, if you want. Not every dragon wants to go to the Rocky Mountains, I don't have dibs on every Mer. Turn them into a community of individuals, not a single mass. There is no way all 300 will agree on becoming Kyhyce, they are, or were, human. It's hard enough getting five humans to agree on what's for dinner, let alone 300 for something as important as becoming the mothers of a lost race. Don't worry about Johara being a Mary Sue. If the readers like her, all is forgiven. Hannah is a bit of a Mary Sue herself. Don't worry either about me referring to Johara in the feminine. It's just a quirk of mine rather than criticism. I can't help but think of any being with a womb as feminine, even if she has man parts as well :-). I think I'm starting to like Johara. Good luck. --Alveric 16:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I got tired of think of what to do with the 300 is why I just turned them all into Kyhyce lol Btw I use 'he' simply for writing convenience traditionally when a gender wasn't specified 'he' was used as a rule of thumb. That doesn't exactly apply here. Trying use the e-he, em-him, es-his, er-her, e-she, etc gets clunky and looks messy. (E rode es bike to visit es gramdma to get er some cake. E got cake for emself as well as er.) I am actually glad you noticed the Spock like effect, not that I had him in mind, unemotionally expressive was what I was going for. Calm to the point of madness lol JoharaGuardian 16:42, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, thank goodness you aren't doing the e, es, er stuff. It's hard to pull off. If you're going to listen to anyone, listen to ShadowWolf. --Alveric 17:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Villains and Conflict

Since this story is taking on a life of its own and there are something in it that are pointless without conflict as some helpful people have pointed out I am working on a villain for the setting. Mephisto seems like a good fit or something similar. Villains aren't my thing. Ideas would be appreciated.

Editing/Critique

I'm just getting started on this, and I hope you have thick skin, because I don't play with words when I start digging in and providing advice on how to better a story. Anyway... Watch this space for the next day or so as I work through what you've got posted to provide you with some advice on how to better the story. -- ShadowWolf 16:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Feels nervousJoharaGuardian 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

First Report

Okay, since I'm starting to get hand-cramps while writing notes about the critique long-hand I've decided to stop about halfway through the opening because it's become somewhat obvious to me that, like most new writers, you haven't fully grasped how to get a story rolling without data-dumps and similar mistakes.

So...

1. ) You've got a problem with repetition of sentence structure in at least the first paragraph and a problem with always referring to Sebastian by name instead of shortening it out to provide flavor and variation.
2. ) Instead of showing the actions and providing something that can grab and hold the attention of the reader you open with a (sorry!) poorly done data dump that lacks a proper flowing feel to it.
3. ) You've got the viewpoint skewed a bit - in the opening it reads closer to a third-person omniscient viewpoint but it transitions rapidly to a first-person viewpoint. This isn't always a mistake, but I'm positive it isn't what you were going for.

Now... On a whim I decided to rewrite the whole "flashback" opening you did as an example of pacing, flow and how to make a data-dump work as part of a story.

Example:

Looking over the wonderfully crafted costume and its related clothing I smiled. Just a year ago it was nothing but a dream and circumstances seemed set to keep it that way. Economically I'd been lower-middle class (and struggling a little to maintain that level) because mental-health non-profits don't pay well - not even the Therapists like me.

But then, one day, I'd had a couple extra dollars in my pocket and the jackpot on the lottery caught my eye. Deciding it couldn't hurt, I plunked down the cash and asked for a quick-pick. Later that night I thought I was going to have a heart-attack when the drawing happened and the numbers lined up with the ones on the ticket I'd bought. Yes - I was the sole winner (though I didn't know nobody else had won, yet) of a huge, multi-million dollar jackpot.

No, I didn't go and immediately commission the costume on the mannikins in front of me. My first move was to donate almost a quarter of my winnings to various childrens and mental-health charities. Then I went and found the right people - Hollywood practical effects specialists and other specialists in high-grade costumes with animated features - to make my dream a reality. It had taken them months to make it and get the bugs out of the mechanical aspects of it, but it had been finished in time for me to wear it to Xanadu.

---

That should give you an idea of what I'm talking about as far as flavor, flow and pacing goes. And yes, it doesn't use the characters name at all - it's a first-person viewpoint - ie: from inside a characters head - and nobody uses their name in their own thoughts. (Except in specific circumstances).

Hope this helps a bit - I'll be back later with more. -- ShadowWolf 16:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

It was meant to be third person, though I admit that probably doesn't work too well for the intro. JoharaGuardian 16:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Considering it starts out with Three Minds, and then has to be fuse into one person. Switching from a third POV to a first POV works IMHO. --Alex Warlorn 17:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, a POV shift at the merger is a good dramatic touch. --Alveric 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• IF* a POV Shift is going to be used, be clear about the tense both before trying it. If I can become confused by the text, then the tense isn't clear and there is work that needs to be done. Otherwise the tense-shift will confuse people and that is never a good thing. -- ShadowWolf 00:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I just feel the shift in narrative POV really hammers home the change in identity. It's been done in Xanadu before and to good effect! --Alex Warlorn 06:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It works well when done well. The problem is that I couldn't tell the difference at all - it caused confusion on my part and had me thinking that the entire work was meant to be in First Person and the start was actually meant to be Third Omniscient. What I said above is to make sure its clear that you are changing the viewpoint for stylistic reasons and to have some clarity of difference between the viewpoints such that the reader doesn't become confused. :--ShadowWolf 22:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Real life has gotten hectic so I haven't had any editing time the past several days. I will work on improving the intro. I did a quick and dirty pov edit, which doesn't seem to meet standards. JoharaGuardian 05:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)