Talk:Paradise (Setting)

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It's an interesting setting, what I've read so far, and I've got an idea or two percolating that may or may not come to fruition. A seed is trying to sprout for an idea starting in '05 and going forward. - Jetfire 19:50, 10 January 2008


After the 2011 crash, the setting lost the most newer storys and the enrichment data inside their related Talk_Pages. Maybe we can get back these with this -> Internet Wayback Machine in the far-far future (when the data gets very very old, its then available there).

If the "Paradise_(Setting)" page it´s like an array that canalize the flow of "hot ideas" through it´s "insulated tube-rules" (preventing the "leaking and cooling" of the new storys in their necesary "plot-curves" and "bottlenecks-dramas"). . . Then the "Talk:Paradise_(Setting)" page it´s like the Virtual Remote Control Panel for that powergrid. When a new "hot idea" pop up in the wrong place or it´s going the wrong direction, a colision alarm sound here!. The "already resolved discussions" divert automatically the issue, and for the real original new ones, at last offer a series of nearby "exhaust valves" designed for the protection of the "global setting" system.

--Argamis 21:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Theory on how the Change 'spreads'

Been thinking about how it might spread, such that we have a higher proportion of Changed in NA, but not leaving the rest of the world out, and I think I know how.

The 'computer virus' that Changes people, uses the RDF to spread itself. Our 'program's' own protection method is also spreading the damages.

Basically, I am guessing that if the RDF needs to kick in on you, then you are passively 'infected'.

Then, when August 17th comes around, the Virus triggers itself, but it for whatever reason can only copy itself for every previously Changed person. (The Doubling effect), and it can only affect people that have been passively infected, ie people who have had the RDF kick in on them.

The goal of the virus is to spread as far as it can, so it takes the number of new Changed it can, and spreads it more or less evenly across the available (RDF-affected) population.

So the first Changed is in Chicago (I think). Through the year until the next Change, she will encounter thousands of people, even in passing, which triggers the RDF on them and passively infects them.

Come August, 1988, the next Changed will be picked randomly from those thousands of people, and now we'll have 2 people spreading the RDF virus. 1989, a big chunk of Chicago has probably had the RDF trigger at least once, not to mention some tourists and other visitors to the city.

In 89, we get 2 more Changed, and one of them could possibly be in a different random city, just because he'd been to Chicago in the past 2 years and unknowingly seen a Changed, and a new nest of RDF-field affected people starts up.

European and Asian and Oceanic outbreaks could happen in years to come as the number of tourists and business people from those reasons travel into North America and begin to be fielded and infected themselves.

The 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City probably 'infected' most of the people who were around and watching, meaning that by then (if not before) pretty much anyone has a chance to be Changed.

It also means that truly isolated areas of the world (South Pacific islands, isolated Amazonian tribes, etc) could potentially be unchanged after the 2020 deadline; but any encounter at all with a Changed would likely Change them immediately and spread like wildfire through the village)

And while the RDF may 'fail' at some point, it'll probably still be around in a less effective form, trying to maintain some stability and spreading the Change. --Jetfire

I'll give that some thought. It's somewhat similar to something I already had in mind. Perhaps those who have the RDF fail completely will be much more likely to change the next year, or they might even change out-of-phase. In any case, once they figure out that it's like a communicable disease, and everyone is already 'infected', the remaining humans will go nuts. --Buck 12:35, 27 January 2008 (EST)

The spread and the exact reason for the "double" number each year, is as if the virus had only one chance per year to run it´s replication part code. (And someone sugest the use of "infected flags" for the furry virus to later identify the already changed).

The fractal-but-random nature of the spread means the Virus need the furrys alive for it´s reproduction, but not proximity at all (probably because the "computronium cloud" it´s an 11-dimension construct); so when the change secuence start, it´s because a "superior computational request" (diferent from the virus itself) has the need to do something to all the humans in the world, but not something that change all of them in a masive, blind generic "*.*" way.

If the detection of a emergent post-human-like inteligence is the reason of the "simulation", then it´s logical for the "server" to execute some "checking subrutine" regulary (once per year) on the most inteligent elements; stoping the propagation of uber-mutated-code things that come from outside the simulation. If the server detects something "wrong" in a human, then It will try to correct any mistakes wihout killing him/her. --Argamis 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I had my theory of how it works the spread: Every time one furry see/hear another furry (under the efect of the RDF) the Virus of both exchange <IP-person> links of eachother and save this in the "already changed" Virus Flag. When a non-infected human see/hear a furry, the Virus try to do some "minor modifications" on the human through the RDF, and then set a "infected" Virus flag on his/her data.

When the server "anual check" detect a human with an "infected" Virus flag, thinks that some very critical "code" is missing in that human, and found a message like: "there is a copy of the same code here: <IP-(furry)person>" (this message and the "missing part" of the code, were the "minor modifications" made by the RDF-Interactive-Section of the Furry Virus). {The TG Virus do not had this "tricky message" in it´s code, and has to wait the ocurrence of an eventual "copy&paste" for his activation/reproduction (this explain the few hundred human affected for this in thousands of years...), then the relationship between the TG Virus and the Furry Virus is a parasite one (or maybe mutualism, we do not know for sure).}

The server now go to the IP-furry_person and check him/her (see more below), then copy the complete code of the Virus and paste-it in the middle of the code of the "infected" human (because has more elevated access privileges, the "server" can write directly on the most "critical" and "active" part of the code of the infected human, the Virus itself can´t do that); then his/her body it´s "corrected" with the furry data "carried" by the living furry that infected his/her previusly. The Server set a "xxxx check: DONE" server flag in the new furry (xxxx is the year). The Virus check the flags, change the "infected" to "already changed" on the newbie furry, and modify his <IP_person> to a higher number (this way every year the server check only the humans and the "infected" humans first).

When the server check a furry, (without the "xxxx check: DONE" of that year) see the "already changed" flag like a "minor" error code, then try to restore his/her original (human) form; but the Virus uses the list of <IP-furry> links, and copy&paste the same Virus code again and again from multiple sources... {this is only posible between furry<->furry , the read&write its not restricted between active "brother" Viruses. In fact some "real virus" an P2P users works like this ^_^) The server left the furry "minor" code intact, but set "xxxx check: FAIL" flag on him/her and go for the next... Every time one infected human goes furry, the "check" on the previus furry Virus "carrier" blocks any posibility of ANOTHER human infected (by the same "carrier") goes to furry that year.

This way, every year the contact between every group of furries<->humans AND furries<->furries it´s equal in importance (for the expansion of the Virus) as it was the previusly year, the IP-furry-links only can double the efective total number of furry if already exist some conection between all of they (pasive in great citys, active search&contact in more remote regions). --Argamis 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Change and disabilities?

I keep forgetting to bring this up on IRC, but how do people (as in writers and other interested people in this setting) think disabilities would be affected by the change? Both Mental and Physical?

Would a paraplegic who lost his legs in an accident regrow them if he changed? Would he regain the use of them if they weren't lost but just disabled? (back injury)? What about false teeth, deafness, blindness, etc?

What if the cause was not from a physical accident, but was viral or bacterial in nature? Some disease struck them blind? Would they stay blind?

And what if the disabilities were genetic? Would those genetic flaws still show in the new form?

Finally, what about mental disabilities? Could the Change 'cure' Alzheimer's? Would it affect someone who is literally a brain dead vegetable on life support?

If it does have curative properties, I suspect we'll start seeing more and more miracle cures (assuming they can survive the flu) in the years to come. Which may imply that there'll be a push in the early to mid 2010's to just keep someone alive as long as possible in the home they Change and are cured/fixed.


--Jetfire 11:00, 4 February 2008 (EST)

I think there are good arguments to be made for some healing properties of the Change, but I wouldn't make it go all out. A person missing a limb should still be missing a limb after the change (I have in mind a scene with a one-armed pianist who goes monkey and starts playing with his feet).
When it comes to things like Alzheimer's, that is a much more difficult choice. I don't see mental retardation being suddenly healed by the Change, as that is a birth defect (and such things happen in animals too). But progressive diseases may backtrack, even if the conditions begin to return over time. That could make an even more painful story, somebody suffering from Alzheimer's, who Changes and now recognizes all his family again. But after a year or so everything starts to slip away again...
Anyway, the whole keeping folks alive and hoping for a Change could make a good dynamic too. I just think there's a lot fo possibilities to consider before we make a decision on this. --MatthiasRat 12:24, 4 February 2008 (EST)
I'm inclined to do as Matthias suggests. It's more or less what I had in mind. However, one of the things that the Change does is it puts everyone in very good health. Even being a 300 pound female bear, CM is in very good shape. It will cure some ailments, and put chronic diseases into remission. Those developments will confuse the medical community enough without regrowing limbs or curing Down's Syndrome. But if you've read the latest Tall Tales, ROB is being forced to act more openly. --Buck 15:40, 4 February 2008 (EST)
What happens to medical devices like heart pacemakers or hip replacements that were implanted in people before they changed? --Jenifur Charne 20:45, 10 February 2008 (EST)
That's basically an open-ended question. I'm going to leave the answer to that one unsaid because I think it'd be a good Plot Point in a story. A furry episode of House maybe? --Buck 22:45, 10 February 2008 (EST)
Late into the discussion, but better late than never. : ) Anyway, what about things like fillings and caps on teeth? Going to a dentist would be interesting. Going another step, outside medical devices wouldn't fit anymore and would bring up some unique delimas. What about people with prosthetics? If someone turns into a bear, I'm sure their leg isn't going to fit anymore, yet Unknown will wonder why they make such a claim all of a sudden. Lots of places to go with these stories. Tinbender 21:24, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

Hey, not really sure on any of the points raised, have to give it some thought. One thing to consider though is can anthro's act as a bridge to humans for viruses that currently only affect animals?--Devin 23:35, 10 February 2008 (EST)

A mortal analysis of Paradise

Lets me see if I get some of the details right.

There is a post-singularity Uber-computer, that when projected into 3-space, has the same consistency as humanity's combined thumbnail and happens to be running a simulation of the events leading up to its own creation. Secondly, it gets infected by a super-bug/virus that makes borg nano-probes look overly large and cumbersome. Said post-singularity, sentient, ROB-type entity/ virus changes some lines of code (if such things can be referred to as such) in reference to the people in the simulation, in and around the vicinity of Chicago (maybe the super-bug's designers had way-distant ancestors from there, or whose ancestors had a grudge against the place). The Uber-comp, in a flash of inspiration counters with the 'firewall-from-not-heck', or RDF as we understand it. The ROB is still successful with its dastardly and despicable plan to make the simulated history end differently.

That I get as far as it can be understood by a three-dimensional entity not particularly versed in post-singularity, multi-dimensional physics and computational theory.

The RDF, The Veil, The "Really-Annoying-Mess-Up-Everyones-Lives" Field, appears to start collapsing or 'twisting' in several personal accounts. In fact, it would seem that there are certain individuals who have appeared to figure out means of 'gazing-past' the gaps in said previously mentioned field even though they do not have one of their own. Yes it has been theorized that they will soon fall victim to the ROB, however, consider that all of this is in one sense mere coding (albeit it happens to be far more complex than that), and that said people are taking advantage of 'bugs' in the code. How many bugs are there? Is it possible for someone (probably a changed, or mad scientist) to 'tune' or 'tinker' with the field, probably no more than tweaks to appearance or color? I know the Primary Engineer Of This Work has stated that there are no 'powers', but then again, this is all just code, and hackers can sometimes be just mortal.

Just a thought or two. I should probably stop this monologue before a super spy shows up. ~midon~

You're pretty close overall, though the simulation doesn't necessarily have to be of the ROB's own creation. Human Earth could be something It came up with all by Itself. Another book that's similar to what I've come up with here is Darwinia. Someone suggested that the best thing for the ROB to do is to restore from backup. The thing is, these are still people. ROB doesn't have a moral problem with allowing them to die within the sim, but will act to protect both itself and its people from an outside threat. Hence the RDF and other measures.--Buck 17:46, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Thinking far future...

First, to make it VERY clear, I am NOT thinking of any stories or anything set in the 2020 period yet. I've just been thinking of how the world may be like by then, as the last half are about to change.

I suspect there would be a mix of celebration (the last humans are joining us!) and mourning (humans will no longer be as they were). Regionally, there will probably be searches for the "last human baby", the ones born days/hours before the last Aug 17 change; they'd probably be local celebrities, similar to "New Years Babies"

And in 2021, the nervousness would start. Is the change source gone? Is it mutating? Are we going to change further? Or into something else now? For the Changed Generation, that little shiver of fear every August 17th will probably persist until they are all gone.

All that assumes civilization hasn't fallen apart by then of course. :)

--Jetfire 10:42, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Summer Olympics

This was nagging at the back of my mind a bit, but I finally nailed it down to actually check dates:

"The 2008 Summer Olympics, officially known as the Games of the XXIX Olympiad, will be celebrated from August 8, 2008 to August 24, 2008".

For the record, the 2004 Olympics also just straddled the Change day, having started on Aug 13th. No other Summer Olympics have straddled Change day, but the 1996 games ended just before it, and the Paralympic Games that year did straddle the Change day.

The 2012 games in London curiously have a break between the end of the Olympics on Aug 12, 2012, and the start of the Paralympics on Aug 29.

Just something to think about for writers out there. :)

--Jetfire 10:07, 27 February 2008 (EST)

The Change takes place right in the middle of the Olympics. All it takes is for one or two athletes to change to gum up the works. These people are already in top physical shape, too. But what happens when a swimmer becomes a dolphin, an otter, or perhaps something that doesn't swim well? I don't think the RDF can handle becoming as large as a rhino. They'll still displace an awful lot of water when they splash in.
I'll have to mention this in Open Secrets.
--Buck 14:53, 27 February 2008 (EST)
At least the illness will be a bit of a cover. Depending on how many Changed athletes there are, (both active and new Changed), the illness could be used to skip out on some events out of necessity.
Still the pressure to perform, even if their form is inappropriate for the sport (A Bull trying to do a polevault or the triathlon in general? A bear for gymnastics? A Mouse in weightlifting? ) will be intense
There would probably be a lot of discussion when a star athlete suddenly isn't performing as well as they did before.
Of course, a few years after that, the Beijing Olympics here will probably end up with a * like the LA and Moscow Olympics, as people find out about the Change and the number of ringers (otters in swimming events, felines and primates in gymnastics, gazelles and cheetahs in track events, bears and bulls in weight lifting, etc...) semi-intentionally sent by the various countries. We could very well see TTC-level problems happening in Olympic Village.

--Jetfire 15:07, 27 February 2008 (EST)

What happens after 2020?

Point one: Computer programs are never intrinsically equipped with an off-switch. Rather, a shutdown condition must be explicitly coded into a program -- and any program which lacks an explicit shutdown condition, will continue to chug merrily along until something hardware-ish gets in the way.

Point two: The Change is the result of a 'furry virus", i.e., a computer program.

2020 is when the entire planetary population will be furry... but who's to say the 'furry virus' won't continue to do its thing, Changing people year in and year out, with each year's quantity of Changes being double that of the year before? We know that being Changed is not an absolute protection against the 'furry virus' -- the setting rules themselves explicitly allow previously-Changed people to get hit with another dose of Change, after all -- so either (a) the 'furry virus' does have an explicitly-coded off-switch, or else (b) starting in 2020, an ever-increasing number of people are going to end up Changing two or more times in any given year.

If the 'furry virus' has a built-in off-switch, that begs the question of what, exactly, its shutdown condition is. Does it stop spreading/infecting when there's no unchanged Human left, is it waiting for some specific event or combination of events before it quits, or what? Perhaps the guy who wrote the 'furry virus' did so with the specific intent of encouraging ROB to make [insert specific changes here] in ROB's virtual world, such that the results of those changes are the virus's 'off-switch'?

If, on the other hand, the 'furry virus' has no built-in brakes, things can get weird, fast. People have already floated the notion of Changes happening "out of season"; what if these 'unscheduled' Changes are merely a harbinger of things to come, in which people can be re-zapped at any time of year, an arbitrarily large number of times per year? It may be instructive, or at least amusing, to extrapolate the data given in "The Numbers", and divide each year's expected number of Changes by the expected population for that year: In 2020, there's 1.12 Changes per person (perhaps every human being Changes, regardless of their current state, and there's a 12% chance of one guy Changing twice?). Since we're basically talking about a doubling function, it only takes until 2024 for every ex-human to be an involuntary member of the Change Of The Month Club (because there's a touch over 17 Changes per person that year), and the Change Of The Day Club starts up in 2029 (during which year there's a bit less than 514 Changes per person per year). In 2034, the extrapolated number of Changes per person for that year is significantly over 15,000 (which works out to about 7/4 of a Change per hour, every hour, for every human being); by 2040, we hit 1.75 Changes per minute; 2046 is when every human being starts to hit 1 Change per second.

To repeat what I said above: Things get weird, fast.

Obviously, the above figures are ridiculous, since they're derived from mindless extrapolation of an exponential curve. Perhaps the most sensible way to go is to presume that ROB manages to do something about the metatstasizing 'furry virus' no later than 2025 or so. In any case, one hopes said figures at least provide a bit of food for thought... Cubist 05:03, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

Change and the Media

It's probably a sign that I watch WAY too much TV, but it's a theme that's been in the back of my mind (man that back area's getting mighty crowded with ideas). As the Change progresses, even with the Veil in place, more and more effects of the Change will start showing up in other ways, and it will become more and more 'public' even if the Unchanged won't really know what is going on. I suspect TV shows especially will begin to show a lot of these.

This is just some of my rambling thoughts on what the TV Cable signals might be sending to the screens of the Changed near-Future.

Reality TV in all its forms will probably be the first to really start showing the effects of the Changed, since they tend to have the fastest turnaround time and the most contact with non-actors. Court shows (like I wrote in my short story case) will have more and more cases of Changed vs Norms and even weird Changed vs Changed cases. "He won't share the nail clippers!" "She gifted me the money for the vacation to Alaska in January")

Gameshows also will start having more Changed contestants, especially popular ones like Price is Right.

And then you have the Survivor types. Show's like "Top Model" and "Bachelor(ette)" and "Blind Date" (especially given the Change's habit of giving the Changed Eye-turning bodies) will probably have the most Changed on a show early on (whether intentionally or unintentionally).

Home Makeover shows may start seeing even weirder designs as designers/homeowners remake rooms to give room for antlers or bigger buttons for hoof fingers and such. (We thought Frank's designs on Trading Spaces were weird BEFORE he Changed... :P )

Amazing Race may have a Changed Team soon; a few Changed in the Big Brother House (probably intentionally put in there by a Changed Studio staffer), and the next Survivor or two would probably have some contestants.

Once the Field comes down, I fully expect CBS to roll out a "Furries vs Normals" Survivor while they can.

Now onto more tasteful TV. (arguably :P )

Cartoons? (what few new ones that are made) will likely start having more and more of a furry bend to them. Hallowe'en specials may turn 'human' toons into furry ones as experiments to transition shows.

Soaps? Expect Change stories fairly soon I dare say. I don't watch them myself, but from what I've heard of some storylines they've done in the past, the Change isn't all that strange. These writers will probably be chaffing at the restrictions of the Field the most.

Sitcoms will probably start getting Changed in-jokes fairly quickly as more Changed writers and actors come on staff. Some of the jokes may verge on Veil-breaking too, but viewers would discount as visual FX.

Procedurals/Drama's, business as normal but more Change-related stories. Maulings and gorings investigated on CSI's (along with strange fingerprints/bootprints, hair samples, etc...), Without a Trace investigating people who disappear after Change Day, maybe even a TG mystery. Numb3rs maybe touching on the Change rate (imagine Chris brought in as an advisor for an ep ? :) ). House or ER dealing with a Changed patient and/or Changed doctors/nurses.

And finally (for now) Sci Fi/Fantasy shows will probably find themselves in a very difficult position. On the one hand, they'd be ideal to start exploring the Change itself. On the other hand, as long as the Field is in effect, they can't really explore them since they'd have to turn normals into Furry's (or dress furry's in fursuits). Plus, a show's setting may not exactly be ideal for adjusting to the Change. "SG-1/Atlantis" may be able to adjust (turn it into an Ori curse or something), but Terminator would have a harder time. Heroes could probably pull it off, but BSG? Unlikely. (Imagine them finding 'Earth' but it's a Furry Earth... Hmmm...)

Anyways, that's just some of my rambling thoughts on the TV of the near future, for what its worth.

There's a simple way to make furries show up in Television. Simply use the polarized lenses as featured in Open Secrets on the video camera units. The image of the furries would pass through the polarized lenses onto the film. The film would record the true image in the same way that people would see the true image. Boom, RDF circumvented. --MatthiasRat 12:26, 28 January 2009 (EST)
True those would work. But everyone involved for those scenes would have to Know or questions would be raised. Depending on the scene and production. (Thouhg some could be handwaved, as long as the producer/editors Know. "Bob's gonna play the part of a man-rat for this scene. We'll CG-replace him in Editing afterward"
--Jetfire 12:33, 28 January 2009 (EST)
Well, at the very least, the cameraman is going to be in the know fast! Actually, I could see something like this being done once things go public. We could have a documentary on the early Changed (while you can still get human actors!), and you'd have some cameras with the filter on it and some without so you could show what the Changed sees and what the unsuspecting humans around him see. -- 05:14, 29 January 2009 (EST)
That is happening to some extent, though not with the filters yet. Shiloh (and her new boyfriend newly Changed this year) are doing what they can to document the Change and how it affects lives as it happens (on the side from their main jobs), and I'm sure she's far from alone on this.
Once more Documentary makers get ahold of this and it goes public, I'm sure there will be more too.
--Jetfire 10:33, 29 January 2009 (EST)

Furries in Space?

OK Time for even more thoughts from me. :) Endeavor's launch last night triggered this thought.

I'm not going to elaborate, but is anyone watching the ISS crew for change symptoms? Or the shuttle crew if they're up? A Change up there could be Veil breaking just because of the amount of attention and lack of privacy those people have. (not to mention the extreme circumstances they'd be under).

The Change itself could very well spell the end of Manned space flight for the next few decades in the end.

Not sure if it would spell the end of manned space flight but yeah even just an examination of the air filter would find stuff that couldn't have gotten up there any other way.--Devin 19:16, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

I'm sure it'd be the end of manned space flight for quite some time simply for economic reasons if nothing else. This is going to be rather disruptive and there'll probably be a bit of a budget pinch. Bryan 19:21, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

The Reality Distortion Field is Real

Sadly, not the one you have in mind: :) Bryan 19:21, 18 March 2008 (EDT)


Just a question about the species: I've noticed you put aside birds for now, but what about bats?-- 23:52, 1 April 2008 (EDT)

Bats will put a huge strain on the Veil. If/when they do show up, it might be coming down by then anyway. --Buck 00:36, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Farming in Paradise

Just shooting an idea in here for later. This is the technology widely deployed it the Paradise setting. But put the clock back ten years (1997 discovery, widespread global deployment by 2008). Biochar/agrichar. With any luck, the Green Revolution will be replaced with the Black Gold Revolution quickly. --Buck 03:27, 15 April 2008 (EDT)


Jon, you're beginning to scare me a bit. :P

This was just on Slashdot this morning: New Source for Biofuels Discovered by Researchers At The University of Texas at Austin

Basically, some bacteria that can make cellulose which can be turned to fuel, and the cellulose can be harvested without harming the bacteria. --Jetfire 06:10, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

I read about this yesterday. They hope to increase production efficiency 17-fold because otherwise, you'd have to cover the entire Midwest with this. Unfortunately it won't happen fast enough to prevent the shortages I know are coming.
I read about this stuff every day. I mean, every day. --Buck 14:19, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Another bit of news: "Scientists find bugs that eat waste and excrete petrol." --Buck 11:12, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

The Chicago Ghost Killer

After having seen countless videos of Persona 3 on youtube, and having played the .hack//GU games, and having read about this setting repeatedly, this idea was born out of my skull. It doesn't really fit with the setting per-say, (people dealing with expected changes in their lives and the changing of culture as truth becomes harder and harder to keep hidden), but it's still interesting.

Imagine if once the number of furries hits the thousand mark or close to it (1997), a strange series of murders begin in Chiago and wander outwards. To normal police and investigators these people have -nothing- in common, just random innocent people. But the furries know that every single person killed was a furry! Now this is where things start to get weird.

When seen by furries, the killer is a lanky laid back twenty something raven haired young man whose expression almost always remains passive wearing semi-formal dark clothes with a revolver in one hand and spare bullets in the opposite pocket.

When the police just about anyone else whose effected by the perception filter see him, they see 'Average Joe' or 'Face You Can't Help But Forget' and never ever notice the weapon he's holding unless he hits them with it or shoots them or something just as drastic. It is also is picked up by metal detectors the same as any metal gun. In other words, his existence, is like the existence of furriness to normal humans, his existence effects them, but they can't notice him directly.

This guy always knows a furry when he sees one regardless of media or medium, or reads one, this include file records of people TGed by the virus. When he spots one or finds out about one, he calmly location that person, in order of him learning about them, and shoot that person in the head without fanfare then simply move on to the next one.

Physically his strength and speed are all perfectly average human, meaning a bear or tiger furry could easy tear him apart.

Strange thing is that if profiled, no records of him will turn up, anywhere!

Also, he might even begin to appear DIFFERENTLY to people who are under the effect of the perception filter. He can't appear as a furry, and can NEVER EVER appear as a precise person (he can't appear as someone's mother or brother). But he can ultimately change how people look at him, they see a five year old girl with a teddy bear opposed to a man with a revolver even if he STILL can't fit in a toy car for the life of him and that 'bear' might go off if someone else 'hugs' it, (which he'd avoid someone doing at all posts). He could also appear as a fire fighter or police officer if he gets clever enough. Though furries will -always- see through this disguise. Along with any human whose able to see furries without effort.

The Chicago Ghost Killer never attacks non-changed humans, and will never take a shot if there's a reasonable chance of shooting a non-changed person.

He travels by mundane methods, he always travels by the most practical and speedy method and always has the correct change or ticket (this is not an illusion). His taxi, train, or airplane never crash.

If detained for questioning, he might just walk straight out of the police station unless some of the cops are furries. If stripped of his weapon and ammo next time he shows up he'll have a new set perfectly identical to the last one down to the imperfections in the casing.

Now this is where things get ambiguous. I don't know if he's killed he just appears in Chicago the day after the change again each year, or weather two different people with abilities similar to his appear in his stead these armed with a crossbow and another one shot distance weapon.

Since deleting the entire universe is not an option, The Chicago Ghost Killer might be an emergency fail safe to try and cut off the infected flesh from the system.

His name comes from where he started killing (strangely the same place as the changes began) and the fact that to normal humans he IS like a ghost, there yet not there but decidedly felt.

I know this doesn't really fit with the setting at all, but I just had to share it with the only people who'd appreciate it.

Thank you.

- Alex Warlorn. 2008 06 15

And his name is Agent Johnathan Walker Smith, is it? Seems like a Matrix Agent to me... (unsigned comment)
Actually I don't think he'd -have- a name, or even know the true nature of the world, he'd just know what he -had- to do and how to do it and how he can do it.-- Alex Warlorn

Octuplets born in California

Things that make you go Hmmmm....

8 babies at once Planning to breast feed them all. Names not being released (yet).

Could we have a changed couple hiding out there from the glare of the media spotlight? :)

--Jetfire 15:25, 27 January 2009 (EST)

Future RDF Failure

I'm starting to work out ideas about how the RDF would fail. My current thinking is that it will work on a small scale first. Visually, there would be a "refraction", like seeing your own eyes through your glasses. Or your leg halfway in a pool. This is the "Refraction Effect". These are places where the RDF has been removed, like a section of glass, revealing the Real World underneath. It's gone. The visual effect makes it clear a border's been crossed. I'm not sure when this is going to happen. Probably sometime near the US Gov wants to go public. --Buck 07:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Weirdness Censor?

I've been thinking about an "RDF Lite" that could basically act as a Weirdness Censor instead of the full blown see-furries-as-humans version that exists right now. There'd still be social upheaval, but not the civilization-ending type that would most likely happen. I'm very likely going to do this in After Hours, but I want to do it right. --Buck 23:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Shoe Field Failure?

Hoof shoes for about $1,700 . What's next? Paw shoes? --Buck 21:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The "Posthuman" World

In order to differentiate this setting from WoC more, I'm going to keep a certain number of regular humans in the furry world that results when the virus runs its course. Same rules as other furry types as far as parent-child species. --Buck 19:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

No offense, but that feels like a cop-out to me. As someone else pointed out, a computer virus is NOT going to simply 'burn itself out' a computer virus continues like any program infinitely unless it's directly ordered to. Once it runs out of humans to transform, it'll start to transform furries into other species, and become even more chaotic as time progresses. I just feels cheap the virus suddenly just stops, and it doesn't make sense form a programming point of view either since it would open MANY MORE cans of worms anyway. -- Alex Warlorn June 15 2009
Okay. How to address this? A lot of my ideas for this setting comes from Charles Stross's work, which can get pretty mind-bending at times. Accelerando, Glasshouse, Singularity Sky, and Iron Sunrise all come to mind. One of my basic assumptions is that the Furry Virus is itself sentient/sapient, but it's not quite as smart as the transhuman intelligence running the Simulation Space that is our universe (down to the Planck Length).
The RDF was a last-ditch effort to maintain the experiment as it was. We're all a bunch of microbes, as far as ROB is concerned. But It's not the type of Being to just chuck the whole experiment into the incinerator and start over. At this point ROB has scrapped the original experiment in favor of trying to prevent our little petri dish universe from going completely bad. So, 1) contain the Furry Virus, and 2) prevent it from doing any more damage beyond 2020 by creating a specific End State. The FV remains, but it becomes an uncommon chronic disease.
Frankly, now that furries and the TGed have been Outed ROB may even stop the history editing. More obvious actions include: Refilling dead oilfields, creating social conditions so humans aren't really surprised at the Change. There are probably all kinds of countermeasures ROB has done that I haven't thought of in order to keep people from going crazy crazy and incinerating their own petri dish. --Buck 03:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking of a similar idea, but in a programming context as opposed to a biological one, and very limited. Think of every person as an element of an array, i.e. Human[]. An algorithm designed to change the values of every element, like the furry virus is doing, would most likely go from 0 to some constant POPULATION_HUMAN. In that case, ROB might be able to circumvent the effects for the virus for a select few by assigning people to special values: NULL, NaN, -1, MAX_INT, INFINITY, or other predefined numbers, even those that aren't considered "special" to humans. The purpose of this would be to preserve some unaltered "data" for purposes not important to us, and it can't be done for all humans because of the effort or memory required to "manually" fix so many values.
Conversely, perhaps ROB will let the virus run its course so It can then safely run a variation of the virus to turn everyone back into humans. That would be another interesting take: when the world's furry in 2020, how will everyone feel when they find out they'll all be human again by about 2055, depending on population, and perhaps if the same thing happens in cycles? ...
...Or if it turns out that life has been this way for a long, long time. Thinking back to what ROB has been able to do, this is easily within Its power. -- MisterBackground 05:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
ROB figures it's best to let the virus run its course then neutralize it like I've described. Perhaps ROB's reworking the Experiment to account for the new changes.--Buck 06:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Colons! Colons as far as the eye can see! Ahaha.
One little problem I had with Accelerando (though I did indeed love it in all other respects) was how completely unfathomable the Higher Beings were. You never could figure out what their reasons were for anything…and in fact, in all their interactions with the remnants of pre-Singularity humanity, they mostly seemed to delight in "poking the anthill". Sending boatloads of recreations of historical and fictitious characters out to that space station just to mess with humanity's minds. And not only could you not ask them why, you wouldn't be able to understand their answer if you did. Hence, one of the things that you hope you learn in the end—the question of "why?"—is forever unanswered.
It would be kind of nice to have some of the characters eventually be able to confront ROB and the virus and ask them what the deal was, but I'm not holding my breath any. —Robotech Master 06:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm very, very careful not to jump the shark. But at the very least ROB does have some empathy for us microbes. While ROB does do some "resimulation" for TGed folk, it absolutely will not alter memories because that would cause personality death.
Paradise is more similar too Darwinia than Accelerando. --Buck 18:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Another possibility I just thought about: perhaps this isn't the act of a virus at all. Instead this is the fix to an ancient "Human Virus" that infected the universe, and it's just restoring the original experiment (or whatever). Or if you really want to throw people off: humanity is the virus itself, and this is how ROB is solving the problem. -- MisterBackground 07:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, this is a post-Singularity virus. Nobody ever said it was strictly one-function only. For all we know, it may have a behavioral change programmed into it. "Take Z action until condition A is met, then switch to taking Y action until condition B is met, etc." Or heck, the virus itself may be a sentient/sapient digital life form with free will, fully able to "change its mind" when it wants to. Certainly there is some intelligent agency at work behind the Reality Distortion Field that has already shown the ability to change its own behavior or react to changes in infected people's situations (changing TG furs' "ghosts"—and all extant records—from male to female when they get pregnant, for instance). No reason the virus can't be the same way. —Robotech Master 23:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
How is that going to work? I'm not sure how humanity can propagate by the "same rules" as other furry types given that it's been established humans and furres are not able to interbreed. Perhaps there might be an inverse of the Sleeping Sickness (a Waking Sickness? :) which causes furries to randomly mutate back into human in addition to the other types of furry form? —Robotech Master 22:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Two thoughts: 1) In 2021 there's a group of humans worldwide who don't Change. They're simply the one species among many. After this point they can breed with furres because the RDF is down anyway. Perhaps they can already do this in Bubbled areas in 2010. 2) Human forms can be a recessional trait that shows up on occasion, between two furres.
Furry babies already look very human due to a type of neoteny. Even the herbivores like horses and deer have very stubby muzzles. It looks more like a mask when they're born. Within two years those muzzle stubs grow the "baby animal" proportions, then as normal. They're generally more thinly furred for those first two years also. I keep thinking of puppies. No matter what the breed, they all look extremely similar when newborn. Same will be true in this setting. --Buck 23:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, TG and TF will continue. I'm thinking of something akin to Matthias' character, with random changes. It'll be considered a chronic disease. And the severe forms can kill you. --Buck 06:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I know this addition to the comment is like 2 years after this discussion happened (not counting the little server loss and what may have been lost there) but anyway, I had a thought here, although it's admittedly more biological-related than computer-related. Specifically, what if certain people just happened to have an immunity to the furry virus? Nobody would know they were immune until 2020 when they don't change. Whether natural, or a last-ditch effort by the RDF that came too late for almost everyone else, it could theoretically be an explanation.--Chessrook44 21:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Possibly the first occurance of ROB

As I mentioned when I introduced him, ROB (Random Omnipotent Being) comes from some other message boards I regularly view/visit. Well someone seems to have found what may have been the first occurrence of ROB. [1] Pretty humble beginnings for him if you ask me. :) (His brother, COROB (Crossover Obsessed Random Omnipotent Being) similarly had humble beginnings a month or so later. [2] )

The RDF and extra extremities.

Assume here that the RDF is functioning normally and hasn't broken down. Normal humans can't feel the extra extremities of the Changed, like tails and horns - they just feel empty air. But what would another Changed see if they were to look at a normal human attempting to touch a Changed's tail? Would they see the human seemingly passing their hand through the tail of the Changed? CNash 23:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you've got it wrong. Extra extremities can still be physically felt. The RDF is like a holographic cloak around the changed - it doesn't actually have an effect on their form. -- ShadowWolf 00:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Shadow is basically correct. Their hand wouldn't pass through empty air. They would meet some weird resistance, but they'd forget about it in a short time. Other Changed would see them touch the tail they can't see. --Buck 01:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I was going by a line in "Made Alone"; CM's diary entry: I say, `Oh yeah, here, grab my tail'. He humors me, but he cannot feel it. I feel him put his hand on it, but he just doesn't feel it. - I haven't yet read through all the stories and I'm going chronologically. CNash 11:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
If there's one thing I've learned about running a shared setting is to not demand ironclad continuity. I always allow authors leeway for dramatic purposes, and I don't mind if events don't quite match up. --Buck 00:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Given that is the earliest described Change event, I just assumed that the Veil was stronger back then, and since lessened to the extent of allowing feeling of extremities. —Robotech Master 07:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


Assertion one: Universe of Paradise setting is mathmatically generated by advanced post-singularity computer. Assertion two: Pre-singularity computers have demonstrated randomized renumbering of internal programing due to outside factors. These renumberings are identified as "glitches," having no basis in programming like bugs and viruses. Assumption: Post singularity computer operates with similar if heavily advanced hardware as pre-singularity computer. Conclusion: Randomized renumberings of programming will occur independently of programming. That is to say, it is not inconceivable that somewhere, a coffee cup on the table is suddenly on the counter. Or that an ant becomes a different species of ant. Or that a gray-eyed man one day has blue eyes. Perhaps these small changes are common and constant. -- Masterweaver 05:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Species Expansion

We have already seen at least one Elephant man. Is the Furry Virus, as it expands, drawing from a larger gene base? And if so, when would the first nonmammalians arise? Personally, I'm expecting crocs in the near future. Perhaps even 2010... -- Masterweaver 22:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The setting is mammals only. Reptiles and birds have very different reproductive biologies. Birds wouldn't be able to fly and cold-blooded creatures can't support a human-like brain and its energy requirements. -- Buck 01:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

An observation

From what I've read, the 'computer simulation' theory is just that- a theory. There's no point blank evidence that this is what's happening within the storyline, and, while I obviously shouldn't just stroll in and rewrite things, but I'd ask the main participators in this storyline to keep this in mind. -- MCMackers -- (note added by ShadowWolf 22:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC))

Jon is the creator of the setting and he has final say in these things... He has not ruled on this yet, but I think he will if it becomes a problem. -- ShadowWolf 22:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If a person doesn't TF again next year...

Maybe I missed something. Is it right that if a person doesn't TF again the year after they first change, they stop changing for good? Thinking of the story's setting (computer simulation), if the change is caused by a virus, surely it could keep affcting people? If that doesn't make sense I'll expand, but surely someone knows what I'm talking about. -- MCMackers -- signature added by ShadowWolf )

First it's "bear", not "bare" - homophones are a big stumbling point for a large portion of people, so I try to help people where I can with them :)
Second... Remember that the whole "post-singularity simulation infected by a virus" schtick is just one possible cause. Jon has said that it could be, but has not pinned it on that. If it really is a virus, then there is a possibility that you could change again 20 years down the line. However... It might be that the multi-change people are somehow an exception - like the virus leaves behind a flag saying "infected" (you'll find this with existing computer viruses, actually) and with multi-changers this flag is missing. Or it could be that the multi-changers are actually being created because of ROB trying to undo the damage done by the virus. And a third possibility is that there is no "virus" and the change is happening according to a plan setup by the people that programmed the simulation - and the multi-changers were randomly selected to be multi-changers.
In other words... Even if you assume that the postulated "post-singularity simulation" is reality the change could be more than a virus and the limits on multiple changes could be somehow tied directly to the purposes that the simulation was created for... Anyway... I've gone on too long with this. -- ShadowWolf 19:03, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Ugh. I actually thought whilst typing, "that's not right, it should be bare..." blast. So much for trying to write a story if I can't do that kind of simple thing.
Thanks for your help. I'm trying to make sure I understand the setting as best I can so I can make my story (hopefully a series, but maybe I'm being a bit ambitious) as best as possible. I'm trying to break the mould... Most characters in the Paradise setting seem to be similar. If my first attempt works, I might try one with a different character... Actually, I'd probably do it even if it didn't work :) -- MCMackers
Just to be clear, it is a simulation running on a post-Singularity cloud of computronium. And it is a virus doing the dirty work. :) -- Buck 02:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
*GACK* - Last time I read the setting page that was still a "speculation" bit :( -- ShadowWolf 08:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Human/Furry detail

More prattling, sorry. Bear with me (Heh. Got it right this time.).

The information on smaller details in the differences between humans and furs is irritatingly lax, and I hit a block while writing my own story stressing over an incredibly minor detail. My problem aside, I think that the lack of detail makes it awkward to write... Would two characters that changed into the same species be exactly the same anatomically? I'm not sure. A couple of stories have thrown me in that respect, mainly "A Kind of Paradise", and "Twisting the Veil". I feel like I'm having a bit of a whine actually, and should just get on with it, but right now, I feel like speaking my mind. -- MCMackers

The anatomical differences between furry species can vary, but not so much that they become incompatible with each other. This is why I didn't want to add birds/reptiles/fish/insects. They're just too different. If they're the same species, they're exactly the same. There is a variance in hair (Some have it, some don't) otherwise everyone is firmly anthro rather than, say, animal ears and tail and nothing else. -- Buck 02:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I understand why there are only mammals in the setting, personally I think it's a good choice. I wasn't really thinking about the degrees of how human/animalistic people are, but rather what traits they take on when they change. For example, I know that people have commented on changes in sounds and smells, but not sight, is sight affected? -- MCMackers
About the sight, in one MatthiasRat´s story, a morph rat can see the shape and size of objects & dodge them while running, (only with the light of the stars in a moonless night); other humans in the same place need to use flashlights. The same caracter can see colors, read or driving a car like any other human in normal light conditions.
Other changed caracter had problems related to perception of deep & 3D; the benefit of a more wide angle of vision it´s not something really useful in the for-human-designed world. --Argamis 13:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
And, as for traits, I know that most species of rodents are incapable of vomiting, fox example. But would the humans be affected by this? Of course, I'm not asking for all the details, that would be ridiculous considering the number of possibilities. I just don't want to write something that doesn't follow the rules of the setting. -- MCMackers
Actually... Things like that are, IMHO, why the 'Sleeping Sickness' bracelets have been issued. -- ShadowWolf 08:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Um, yes, those. Maybe I haven't been reading the right stories, but to the best of my knowledge, the bracelets are to let doctors know (provided they already know about the whole thing) what you changed into. Have I missed something? (I feel like I'm asking too many questions. Sorry.) -- MCMackers
There is a mention in one of a changed that was a species to which aspirin is toxic being killed by a doctor prescribing aspirin... I just don't remember which story that was. The stories about Doctor Clay have most of the good information about how changed can suffer from problems/illnesses incumbent to their species. (IIRC there is a judge that starts suffering from a problem only seen in horses - and he's a horse...) -- ShadowWolf 08:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The idea behind the "Sleeping Sickness" bracelets was pretty much a (bad) attempt by a small group at the CDC to get help to Changed. Hospitals were supposed to report such cases that presented in order for doctors in the know to be summoned. It was created essentally with the idea that it wasn't really a workable solution, but the best that could be come up with. The factoid that came up about toxic medications was based on a factoid I heard many years ago, that penicillian has a singular toxicity for rodents. As such, as drug testing is set up today, its unlikely it would ever be approved. The idea is that there is enough transformation that people might pick up certiain toxic reactions to things that they didn't realize. I'm not sure anyone has really gone into depth with this, but I'd think you could infer that some canines would have violent reactions to chocolate, for example. Like all things, there would be some variability, just like some dogs can seem to eat chocolate fine while others it might kill. -- Eirik 23:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Extreame ROB

I had an odd thought last night about the implications of what ROB does with respect to rewriting documentation of peoples pasts. ROB has been known to change paperwork, pictures and even apparent histories of people. (Didn't someone in After Hours discover they were supposed to have dated people earlier as the opposite gender?) That got me to thinking about how far this might all go. Assuming that ROB doesn't actually start to mess with memories, will it start to alter older records? Pictures from earlier than the first Change, even for subjects that died before it all started? Paintings? And would they be consistent? Would every painting done of George Washington find the same form? And to take it a few steps further, what about statues? This could get messy... which isn't always a bad thing from a story perspective. -- Eirik 15:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I can see that happening more as a result of the furry virus, since that kind of extreme "history editing" feels more malevolent to me than something ROB would do. -- Buck 20:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Interesting though that would be, it's an important plot mechanic for there to still be remnants of the human world - Once the entire human race has transformed, they need to still be aware that this has happened - Rewriting history would remove this and it would be as if nothing happened... if you see what I mean? -- MCMackers
It would make sense for things to get messy if it were the virus causing it. Sloppy, half rewritten pasts, people not sure of what really happened and what didn't, more like a temporal infection than a careful rewriting. That kind of scare could lead the reader to be a bit more sympathetic about ROB trying to stop the virus's progression. It would also make a great opportunity to go all Serial Experiments Lain on a story and leave people wondering wtf -- Tasci 09:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Furry Sizes

What size are furries? It's pretty clear that bears are big and mice are small, and it mostly makes sense to have the same thing (but not as extreme) for anthroid furries, but there are some other size differences I can't so easily imagine. Some guidelines might be helpful. Ferrets in particular, ferret males are often twice as big as ferret females, as is the case of many mustelids, but at the same time both of them are smaller than cats. If I make a female ferret larger than a rat, and a male ferret smaller than a cat, that's starting to leave not so much room to spare. If I had to finagle a scale I'd say

  • mice - 1.2 meters (or less!)
  • rats - 1.3 meters
  • female ferrets, squirrels, minks, etc - 1.4 meters
  • male ferrets, ringtails, mongooses - 1.6 meters
  • female cats - 1.7 meters
  • male cats, skunks, raccoons - 1.8 meters uh...
  • big cats and wolves - 1.9-2.0
  • big stuff like bears - all the way to 2.2.

But then again it might also be fun to have a 2 metres tall cavy. GEORGE LOVES YOU COME GIVE GEORGE A BIG HUG.

Maybe illustrating size differences between sexes is a bit too piccaunish. >.< -- Tasci 09:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I should personally think that irrelevant. While there's clearly going to be some destinction between heights and races, I think guidelines are unnesecary. People come in all shapes and sizes, this individuallity should be maintained. -- MCMackers

One little detail though, (and it doesn't really apply to me but may for others), removing hippo's, rhino's and elephants from the pool seems to be a bit speciest, considering moose are allowed. In looking at the Wiki, it seems that hippos (1.5meters) and rhinos (2.0 meters) are actually generally smaller or the same size as the largest moose (2.1 metres) species. Elephants seem to average about a meter or two larger than the moose.

Perhaps a better restriction would be to allow any land mammal (and any sea mammal that is between the sizes of the minimum land mammal size and the maximum land mammal size), but set minimum and maximum furre sizes; something like a min of 1.2 metres or 4ft to a max of 2.0 metres or 7ft.

Anyways, I'll try and keep an eye on things and see if I can culture this idea I've got further. - 19:50, 10 January 2008 Jetfire

Human Survival

Since the US government, and governments of the world, would have obviously known about the furry changes for many years as government officials became Changed, they logically would have set up Projects (like the Manhattan Project) to study the reasons and try and find a solution. It is obvious to them that the end of humanity will come and this should have all contries of the world enganged in studying the scientific causes of the RDF and ways to affect it. Many of the scientists themselves who get changed would surely want to study the effect. Any physics professor changed would jump at the chance to study it and get the next Nobel prize for figuring it out. It does defy natural laws, therefore the new laws it does follow can be studied. If there is some master computer responsible for the universe, such as in Jack Chalker's "Well of Souls" books, then this it might be possible for a "super computer" build by the UN or whoever to communicate with the ROB virus program or even the Master computer itself, and change it, such as the computer "Obie" in the Well World books. Personally, I favor a different approach. In 1987 a super computer someplace near Chicago DID develop self awareness, predicted that mankind was going to overpopulate and destroy the planet, and it decided to "FIX" things by connecting with the main universal computer at the center of the universe on a night when the least number of galaxies are in the way, which happens to be Aug 17. The governments at some point would find out that the birth rate is on a serious decline even though it is possible for furries to have babies, it is not as common as humans due to all the different genetics and species involved. Mating a horse furry with a rabbit furry is much less likly to produce offspring, for example, that mating a horse furry with another horse furry, so regardless of who was married to who when they are human, statistically the couple won't be able to have children after both change, unless they are the same. Some story about finding the ROB computer near Chicago before 2020 should be a possibility and reasoning with it might be a good solution. -- Enphilistor 02:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, there is no ROB computer in our world, if I'm understanding what you're saying here. It isn't like Obie or the Well World where it's something inside the Universe itself that's causing the Change. This setting--basically our world--exists as a Planck-level simulation space inside a post-Singularity posthuman computer. There are two viruses (also posthuman, slightly more advanced) responsible for the Change: A relatively controllable TG virus, and the much newer "furry virus" that ROB can't contain with "history editing".

Keep in mind that governments didn't really know this was even happening until the early 2000s. Otherwise, the RDF/Change as a source of study for physicists is a good angle. -- Buck 18:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I just hate to plug but if you want an example of how goverments might screw up the change read my story Cascade Failure

-- Fibio 20:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course, in a way it's kind of pointless even to know about it, since I can't really foresee any way that it could ever become a plot point within the story itself. I can't really see humanity figuring out how to "hack" its way out.

It doesn't really make that much of a difference, from an in-universe standpoint, to assume that it's all being done by "magic". (Any sufficiently advanced technology…) —- Robotech Master 21:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much [3] all around.  :) -- Buck 22:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Wow, thanks folks for all the replies to my post! People to talk to! OK, first JonBuck, I am not really sure I understand all the Plank-level simulation space inside a post-singularity posthuman supercomputer stuff (I did try to look up the story Accelerando but I just found a book cover) but I interpret this to mean: Plank-Level = really really small; simulation space = not real or temporary space in computer memory; post-singularity = after a black hole evaporates in about a few trillion years; post human = mankind extinct; supercomputer = something like the Cosmic AC in [4] ?

However, my ignorance aside, regardless of what the supercomputer is, or what we are, it would in effect be God. Now ROB could represent the devil, or if God has gone crazy, the savior. ROB either was created by the supercomputer "GOD" on purpose or by accident, it was created by a simulation universe, either our own, a past one, or another running concurrently, to infect God, or it was created by God's creators as some part of the God computer for some purpose and function, and if that is the case then either it is carrying out its intended program or it has malfunctioned. I think that is a complete list of all possible options, so if I have missed one then please let me know.

You stated, "It comes from outside the post-Singularity brain, and is slightly more advanced than "ours". What's happening is this bit of malicious code (sentient, no less, but on a level far beyond our ability to comprehend it) is messing up the simulated world we reside in. Why? I dunno. One of those inscrutable things." This sentient "virus" needs to have come from one of the posibilities above, and I suppose it is up to you to decide which, but since "you dunno", then I will try to help.

I guess the first question is "Why did God create the universe?" which translated means "Why is the supercomputer running the simulation?" Is the goal good or evil? Perhaps the supercomputer was programed to do so for an evil purpose by its creators, and ROB is sort of like its concience it has developed and wants to mess up the experiment before it can produce evil results. I would favor ROB being good, instead of evil, perhaps trying to produce a different result that will end up doing good than if the simulation ran to completion on its present course. However, that being said, if ROB is a computer virus, and based on logic and programable, and is expending energy to maintain the RDF, scientists studying that might find a way to..either communicate with it, grab its attention, or annoy it. I believe that enabeling some communication with it, even though we won't understand it completly, would produce some interesting stories.

Fibeo, I had previously read your story and just re-read it. By the way it is fine to plug :) When I read it the first time I thought that it really did not fit in with the rest of the stories since it involved time travel. In the context of a simulation, that would mean more than one running at one time, all on different timelines, and being able to hop between them. Maybe ROB is trans-simulation and could have helped this, but I really don't see how anyone in a simulation could get the supercomputer running it to re-set it to a prior time point and insert someone from a future point. It was an interesting story however and I did enjoy reading it.

Robotech, "magic" is a nice simple explanation to explain the unexplainable, but mankind strives for answers, it seeks to understand, and predict and ultimately control those things it can not immediately explain. Faced with an unexplainable force that is threatening mankind itself with extintion, mankind will use all resourses at its disposal, spare no espence, bring the greatest scientific minds, changed and unchanged to work on studying and solving the problem. It may be futile, we may never be able to win against the Gods, but it is the nature of mankind to TRY! You mentioned it is unlikly manking could "hack" its way out. That would be one possibility, since mathematics would likly be the same for both us and the supercomputer and ROB which are both based on mathmatics and logic. however, there are possibities for stories regarding that attempt..and could be very interesting. If I was a writer, I might even try writing one, but who knows...I might anyways.

Back to JonBuck. The link was to an article about people thinking something and it becoming real. Much too powerful, sort of like...writers! -- Enphilistor 00:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I'm going to clarify some concepts here.
The Singularity I'm referring to is the Technological_singularity . Nothing to do with gravity. A further entry on posthumanism , and its close relation, Transhumanist. By Planck-level I mean, basically, the smallest length in the universe . Everything down to those levels is "simulated".
Moving on, the kind of questions you bring up I actually don't want to deal with. The reason I'm using the ROB acronym in the first place is to avoid overtly religious connotations. I realize that they're very important, but it's otherwise such a contentious issue in the real world. I really don't want to see any "communicating with ROB" stories.
Post-Singularity intelligences are by nature inscrutable (I've seen Stross refer to them as "Weakly Godlike Entities" in his books). At this point ROB has switched to a "salvage mode" by making direct changes to the "simulation" in the form of alleviating energy crises (a huge concern of mine at the time I wrote most of my stories in this setting) and climate change.
Accelerando is actually available for free.
-- Buck 02:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply Jonbuck, the links were very helpful and I have a clearer idea what you are talking about now. It is going to take me a while to read all the stories.
I used religious words to describe ideas simply that are familiar but did not mean in any way to be controversial.
I will try over the next few weeks to put together a short story within your constraints, and if it exceeds your limits we can just change it. I plan to make one assumption, and that is that a simulation is defined by rules set for it that need to be obeyed for it to continue running. ROB changing the speed of light in the simulation for example would be such a fundamental change in everything that it would break the entire simulation, i.e. crash the program. ROB can only work within the rules set for the simulation, agreed?
-- Enphilistor 02:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Major changes in underlying physical constants would probably be ill advised, even for ROB. :) At this point the simulation is being salvaged to prevent social chaos, death, and extinction of the people inside it.
There's a novel out that has some very similar ideas and influenced a lot of how I set up this setting: Darwinia by Robert Wilson .
-- Buck 02:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply JonBuck, I can work with that, and will post something in a few weeks for your feedback. -- Enphilistor 00:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

About (2004) Victory Starts Here

OK, JonBuck, I lied and posted the story in just 2 days. I could not stop thinking about it. I got as far as I could. Could you please read it and then tell me the results of each of the experiments before I can continue in the next one? Thanks! Enphilistor 00:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

After the "server crash" of 2011; the original story Victory Starts Here (by Enphilistor ) is now avalaible (in a very crude, text only format) in the Talk Page of it´s creator: Victory Starts Here
-- Argamis 13:00, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think I will just have to decide for myself how the experiments turn out and just hope you approve. One of my goals in the stories I plan to write is to explain "scientifically" all the effects you have going on here are consistent with all universal laws. If you are running a program, you can't change the code of the program while it is running. You can change the code but only by stoping the program from running and recompiling it. So anything ROB is doing has to be done inside the simulation following the rules of the simulation (under the premise of the stories I plan to write). It is really not going to be easy for the scientists(i.e. me) to explain the changes to the past records, or why they start off only being change a few years back, then all the way back to the day someone was born, and undoing history such as marriages. And remember, I can't have ROB using "magic", ROB is in the simulation and has to be constrained to its rules. Because of this constraint, ROB needs a "body" someplace and a supply of "energy" from somewhere, to direct and power all these changes. I hope you enjoy my next story, that should be entiteld something like "Victory Continues", where Paul has to cope with being a female pig, and the scientists recieve some confusing results on the origin of the signals they record. -- Enphilistor 22:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Not really. If ROB is outside of the simulation, there's nothing to stop it from pausing the simulation and reworking the fabric of it as necessary. It's like pausing the Sims and placing new walls or whatever. As far as the Sim-people are concerned, those walls might as well as have always been there, even if we (the players) know better. ROB is not inside the simulation, ROB is the player(s) outside the simulation. In no sense does ROB need to obey any rules within the simulation, nor does it need act within the laws of the simulation to change the simulation. By definition anything ROB does is going to be 'magic' because turning people into furries, or editing history, isn't something that's allowed within physical laws. Most of the transformations directly violate the law of the conservation of mass and energy, for example.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, and I'm clearly not Mr Buck (who might disagree with my explanation), but it seems like you're not quite getting the setting, as I understand it. Hope that helps.
-- Honeymane 07:52, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Got it in one, Honeymane. -- Buck 18:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

JonBuck said, Major changes in underlying physical constants would probably be ill advised, even for ROB. :)

In addition, since ROB hates paradoxes, and will go to such extremes as making sure each child will have both a biological father and a mother and never 2 fathers or 2 mothers, following the rule of conservation in energy and mass is necessary to avoid such paradoxes on an even more fundamental level and in any case easily achieved. If you read my story, that exact experiment has been set up to measure this. Since it is so easy to maintain mass and energy balance, which you will see in the next story, there is no reason to violate this universal law. Imagine the effect on the simulation if you try to break this rule either while it is running or "pausing" it. A calculation is in the process of being made on an object between it and every other object in the universe. In the middle of the calculation a zero is entered (E = mC^2, so if you are going to, C is either zero, which crashes the program and is not what JonBuck said, or as m goes to zero, then c goes to infinity which also changes the velocity of light constant which JobBuck said would not happen). Some calculations have already been performed and other calculations in progress have end up with a divisor of zero. You crash the program when you restart it, as the zero divisor propagates in all the calculations throughout the universe.

In any case, mankind will try and study these effects, and my stories will be mostly concerned with these attempts. However, when I say all laws have to be obeyed, that does not mean all laws that humans know about, it can include new ones. It may be that the results of the experiments will lead them to conclude that something is breaking the laws of the universe because they don't understand them all, but ROB will know what it is doing. I imagine it like this. The main computer can't use its antiviral programming to stop ROB as long as ROB is hiding in the simulation and following the rules in the simulation, but if ROB breaks the rules, and crashes it, he becomes exposed with no place to hide and gets zaped. You will see that in the next story, that ROB is still just as powerful to the same "magic" as it can is now, and still be consistent with all stories that have happened, and the setting JonBuck has set up. JonBuck has not really explained the interaction between the main computer and the virus or any protections or why they are not working. In any case, it doesn't matter what i think, since the stories I plan don't mention this at all, they will be consistent with either ROB being inside or outside the simulation, only what the beings in the simulation measure is in the stories. Just trust me, the story will be interesting and fun, and if JonBuck says no to some result after he reads it, I will change it. Fair? -- Enphilistor 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I haven't had time to read your story yet. Frankly, reading your comments here I'm getting a little antsy over what exactly the impact it would have on the overall setting. I think you're over-analyzing the setting, frankly. You're asking questions about it that I really can't answer.
Also, use colons in front of your paragraphs to make them indent and create a "nested" topic. And put a blank line between paragraphs. Thanks.
-- Buck 02:21, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
For JonBuck I had intentionally not been using indents so that my comments would be totally left justified and everyone the replies for everyone else indented, make it easier in my view to keep things organized. But if you prefer indents, I am easy.
I had assumed that you had already read the story. It would be good for me to get some feedback on that since none of the things we discuss here are really in it, but may impact it.
-- Enphilistor 02:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I think you're confusing the 'players' here. First, there's the computer that all the "real" characters (ie the characters in the story) exist in. ROB 1 is likely someone running the computer, perhaps for anthropological reason, perhaps because they're bored. ROB 2 is unrelated to ROB 1, but for one reason or another, has managed to add a virus program to ROB 1's simulation, causing problems. There are at least 2 viruses that JonBuck has discussed; one that changes gender, and one that changes people into furries, we could, however, imagine that there may have been other viruses in the past, that eventually ROB 1 removed. For example, Atlantis might have been real, and so might have the Greek/etc gods. Atlantians were gifted technology beyond what they should have, and ROB 1 deleted the island to save the program, ROB might have also deleted the Gods, for whatever reason, etc. I'm just speculating here. Now, either ROB can't remove the virus like it did the other problems, or it realized that altering reality was screwing with the program's purpose (such as anthropological study) So rather than delete the TG or TF viruses, ROB 1 created a program to try and mitigate the virus's effects. This program is what causes the history editing (etc).
Both these viruses exist within the programing of the Computer, but not on a level that would appear to anyone in the program. It's important to remember that time doesn't necessarily pass like it does within the computer; the virus could get it's work done in a nanosecond. Everything else, the sickness, the slow change, all these might be part of the mitigation program's efforts to prevent anyone from changing in public, and to change so suddenly they lose their minds, nor without warning. But there's no reason to think that this computer virus is operating through something like an actual virus, or that the changes are visible on a cell level before the change occurs, even in those showing the signs of the change.
But again, this is just me talking, not Buck. But I do strongly suggest you hold off writing too much more until Jon has a chance to review your story, or else you might very well find yourself writing something based on ideas that JonBuck doesn't like/want in his setting.
-- Honeymane 04:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
For Honeymane It is really difficult to hit a moving target. I have not seen in any of the stories and discussions or JonBuck's guidlines about prior activity of ROB. As for ROB1, ROB2, ....ROBN, only one master computer has been mentioned and only one ROB virus. In my understanding, the main comupter has created a SIMULATION. The main computer is infected with a much smaller and more limited "few lines of code" virus, that the beings on one planet in the SIMULATION call the random omnipotent being, but this being is only omnipotent comparted to us, not compared to the main computer. I do not see ROB having the same power to shut down the simulation, pause it, change the rules in it or perform any of the jobs the main computer does.
-- Enphilistor 04:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
I see ROB as much more limited. It needs to avoid detection of the antiviral programs, it can't attract their attention, it needs to work by stealth, it is a virus after all, it can't do things that say, "here I am!". And this all follows from things JonBuck has indicated. If he wants to say ROB = main computer in all powers, then well, fine, but he has not done so. He has not defined the motives of ROB or the main computer. when asked, he has said, " I dunno". Given that void, since I need to write in that setting, I find myself creating possible motives for them in my mind.
It makes no difference to the stories I plan to write, but it helps me limiting ROB to viral powers and behaviors, not mainfraim abilities. A virus has 2 main goals, to keep itself alive and to reproduce itself. ROB may or may not have the second goal, but it will have the first. While doing this in any enviornment, it may cause side effects. Imagine ROB as a biological virus, and a living cell as the simulation that is growing inside a body that is the mainframe. At one time ROB was outside the cell, in the body (mainframe) where lots of antibodies (antiviral programs) were hunting for it. By entering the cell, it is now hidden from the body's defenses. However, if the cell gets sick or dies(ROB crashes the cell simulation) before ROB has either left the cell or reached a state of reproduction where that is desireable, then the body will just devower the cell and grow a new one. So in my scenario, perhaps ROB realized that the purpose of the simulation was about to be achieved, and since ROB is not ready to reproduce, it is messing with the simulation, hyjacking it as a virus hyjacks the DNA of a Cell, to keep the simulation alive longer than it would otherwise, so that it won't reach the conditions for termination, until it can make other copies of itself to infect other simulations. Who knows, maybe with enough copies of itself it can take over the mainfraim. Alternatively, its work at transforming mankind may be the way it is going about reproducing. Alternatively, ROB might have realized the simulation was about to produce a failed reslut which would have terminated the simulation and it is acting to keep itself alive by preventing failure conditions.
In any case it makes no difference to the stories I plan to write, JonBuck had declined to actually be clear on this, and it really does not matter. The beings in the simulations don't know this, and it is difficult to think of any way they could ever find out. Well actually I could, because I am like that. One way would be if ROB tells them, and since Jonbuck said no comunication with ROB, that won't happen. Another if the mainfram sends a COR (Correcting Omnipotent Being) into the simulation (...and God sent his only begotten son...that type of idea) and told people.
The second story is half done, and I plan to continue writing it since I have it all layed out in my mind. Hopefully Jonbuck will read the first story and give some feedback before I finish, but I believe he will approve of both stories in any case. And if not, I will change them.
-- Enphilistor 04:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
*puts on peacemaker and teacher hats*
From what I can tell you're looking for an explicit statement of something that has been implicit in the setting design since the start...
Where the Solar System once sat is now a cloud of what you could call "Computronium". Inside this computer are many, many simulations. Whether these simulations are the creation of a separate physical being or the uploaded minds of people is a moot point - we'll never see the "real world". (btw, ROB could actually be an AI that was once a person...)
The stories all take place inside one of these simulations that has picked up a couple of viruses somewhere. One of them has been around since at least the late 70's (IIRC, this is mentioned in one of Jon's stories) and the other didn't appear until 1987. The one that showed up in 1987 - the "furry virus" - is newer and initially ROB had tried to contain it using the "Perception Filter". When it somewhat "merged" with the TG virus the simulation got a lot more unstable and ROB had to start including things in its "containment" to help combat that instability. That is the "history revision" stuff. It also is the cause of the changes to married couples with children - because it was seeing potential causes of instability (no more mother/father) and fixing it as it could.
There is no "ROB" actually in the simulation - think about the game "The SIMS"... In that game you are the ROB - the creator and maintainer of the simulation. And you can "Pause" the simulation, make changes and restart it. In this case at least the entirety of the solar system is part of the simulation and every time ROB has to make a change it "pauses" the simulation, makes the changes and then hits the "normal speed" button. Now... there might be some people in the world that are actually from outside the sim, but they'd never make themselves known - and they could, probably, act like the ROB and remove any evidence of themselves (outside of memories) from the sim.
-- ShadowWolf 04:21, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I think a lot of the problems here is a misunderstanding of the source material I'm drawing inspiration for this setting from. Honeymane and ShadowWolf have both described things well. (Though I'm going to bump the TG virus back a few more centuries). A few points.
* ROB exists outside the simulation. Other ROBs are not important. The Virus is not a ROB. However, ROB isn't really a physical being either, as SW describes.
* The Virus originates outside the simulation. Who and what originally made it is a moot point.
* The intent of said "virus" (the term only fits loosely) is to throw a monkeywrench into ROB's simulation of our universe. The reason why it hasn't been contained is that it was created by a slightly more advanced post-Singularity Mind than ROB. Since ROB can't contain it, ROB can only mitigate.
* Essentially, the two virii are intended to cause social chaos via random transformations. It doesn't exist to propagate itself to other simulations. In the first case, a "quarantine" of sorts was created via modifying the present records of those TGed to reflect their new gender. If it was true history editing neither the person transformed nor the people who knew them would remember what they'd been. What ROB is changing are just the present physical objects.
Honestly, go read Part 2 of Accelerando. It was originally started as short stories, so you can pick it up there. That's where a lot of the concepts for Paradise started.
-- Buck 05:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, it seems terminology is messing me up. I was under the apparently mistaken belief that ROB was the virus, and the Mainfraim running the simulation(s). I believed this because the virus was random and chainging someone to a furry is sort of mildy omnipotent. Yes, I fully agree that if ROB = Mainfraim(or AI who might have once been human) then ROB must definatly outside the simulation. My comments were consering only the virus(es) that are causing the transgender/furry transformations. Let me call the form that can do either one or the other or both, the Random Omnipotent Virus, ROV for short so there will be no misunderstandings. I can see ROB stoping the simulation and making corections, eliminating divisions by zero and all that. However, ROV should not have those abilities, being just a lowly virus, compared to ROB. The stories I wish to write constrain ROV to using the same old laws that existed in 1987, and prior to that if there was the TG virus. The universe we live in now was supposed to be identical to that one until 1987, I would like that ROV should be handicaped a little by the rules ROB created for the simulation. A simulation is to test SOMETHING, and if you start changing the rules (ie laws of nature) your results are just not going to simulate the conditions you wanted to in the real world, where you don't have the power to change the laws of nature. The experiments the humans are setting up in my first story will indicate only the effects being caused by ROV. If ROV is outside or inside the simulation does not really matter, but if ROV can behave just like ROB, then that study is just not going to produce anything interesting either scientifically, or plot wise. Such violations of the laws of nature might just scream at them "There really must be a god involved." and we never want them to know or suspect ROB or the true nature of ROV. To have a scientific study, I would like ROV to follow the laws of the universe, for any of the reasons described here and in prior posts. I will work out some reasons that make sense to the humans for all things happening regarding the transformations, to keep them studying and not just throw up their hands in frustration, if that is ok. -- Enphilistor

Count of Changed in 1997

Hello! I'm new here, but I really like this setting and read probably most of the stories. I even made my own table in Excel to draw the changing numbers as a graphic (Also for my hometown to get a grip on the numbers). And there I noticed something:

Maybe I just missed a story or paragraph where it is explained, but shouldn't there be 1024 Changed in 1997 instead of 1028? Where do the additional 4 Furries come from? I know this is just minor, but the error is kept through the following years till the end and all the numbers are wrong (It doesn't however change the fact that 2020 is the last year).

It's not so important, but it's been bugging me since I noticed it. -- TigeR 15:53, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Check out the Paradise (Setting) page. It has all the numbers. -- Buck 02:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Jon, you do have a +4 in 1997 over a strict doubling. This is what he was pointing out and asking questions about. -- ShadowWolf 02:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
And fixed! -- ShadowWolf 02:37, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
This error went a heck of a lot deeper and its possible that the skew-factor introduced in 1997 effected the percentages as time went into the future - however... I fixed this by hand and then verified the figures against a program that output every power of two from zero to the 33rd. As it stands this table now has correct figures for the furry population and one can only assume that the historical figures for population are correct and the projection fits the curve correctly. -- ShadowWolf 02:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Paradise:The Soundtrack

Not sure about anyone else, but I find music to be a major inspiration.. Well of course it

is... the song "Strangers by Yoko Kanno" got this series off the ground did it not?

So I decided to put together a soundtrack, it's not available for download because I own

none of these songs... But if you happen to have them, you can arrange them in your iPod

Playlist, if you want.. I mean I'm not forcing ya, it's just a possibility.

Yoko Kanno - Strangers -_Wolf's Rain - Strangers by Sori Smile-_ <- { The begining of ALL of this... }
Bliss 66 - Not Quite Paradise <- {This song pretty much hits the entire series on the head... (It's from the ending of Titan A.E., damn good movie, do see it sometime)}
Three Days Grace - Animal I Have Become
Goo Goo Dolls - Iris
Mighty Bosstones - Impression That I Get
Lee Brotherton - Dream Of An Asbolution
Cash Cash - Speak With Your Heart
Eminem - Beautiful
Shania Twain - Man I Feel Like A Woman
Chip Tha Ripper - SLAB Freestyle -_What Are You Inside? - Furries In A Blender_- <- { Joke YouTube Entry }
Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World
Foo Fighters - The Pretender

and finally:

John Mayer - Waiting On The World To Change
 %Crush 40% - %Is It You?% -_% <- {%Is it you? Is it me? Is it everything we're meant to be? Is it here? Is it now? That only we can feel somehow%}

I think I forgot some, but yeah, definitely these. - Hawl (1/10/11, 1:55 PM)

The new metadata format for the songlist is: %Artist% - %Songtitle% -_%YTtitle%-_ <- {%comment%}

Stanfour - For All Lovers <- { My Favorite ; "...For all the Changeds, and Believers..." }
Stanfour - Everything Has Changed
Skillet - Monster
Three Days Grace - Never too late

-- Argamis 13:50, 03 February 2011 (UTC)

"It's the new mother nature taking over
It's the new splendid lady come to call
It's the new mother nature taking over
She's getting us all
She's getting us all"
The Guess Who - No Sugar Tonight/New Mother Nature
And then there's 'Linkin Park - What I've Done from my Melton's Eleven stories…
Robotech Master 06:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I would put in Jason Derulo - The Other Side, and since one of my characters is going to become a famous singer, I'd put more on the list.
Sivle (talk) 17:58, 24 March 2017 (CDT)

I Need a Date

Not that kind... I'd like the exact date of Tall Tales. Or maybe even a compilation of important events and when they happened. I don't mean the year, but the actual days. I hate sounding important like this, so please just try to roll with this and help. The important thing for me was Tall Tales. When did the convention take place? I've looked through this page, the story, and several related stories, but it never really mentioned a date, so if somebody knows, and they could get back to me on this, that would be great. Thanks. Atapari 01:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

If I was going to pin down an actual date, I'd put it at Veteran's Day weekend. A lot of cons take place over a long weekend. As for the exact sequence of events, I'll have to reread the story. --Buck 02:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
It's actually a little hard to pin down the date. As I pointed out in the "Continuity Snarl" entry on the Paradise TVTropes page, it's strongly implied to take place in October (a character in Jetfire's "Clearing the Air" complains about its effects in a scene set on October 22nd, which is presumably a week or so after the con so those effects have had time to be felt), but Nikon's "Changing Perspectives" (which takes place concurrently with "Tall Tales") says it's set in November. Of course, neither of those people are JonBuck, who wrote the original story and gatekeeps the continuity, but neither of them is necessarily more valid than the other—though if we go by what Jon says above, Veteran's Day is in November. —Robotech Master 03:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch, both of you. This'll help me finish my story. (By the way, I love all your stories. My own are sort of pathetic, but I aspire to be as good a writer as you.) [wow, that was corny.]Atapari 23:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not too corny, Atapari, MatthiasRat is like my personal hero... Of course so is Robert Hallman, but for completely different reasons. Btw, if you're reading this Matty. Then you've earned this bad Sonata Artica/Winds Of Change reference. Diiiiiiiiiiiid you ever knooooow that you're my hero! And everything I would like to beeeeee. Cause you are the wiiiiiind beneath my wiiiiiiiiiiiings! See it's funny cause he inspired me with a TF story and I called him the wind beneath my wings... And... there's that other series... and... yeah I'll just shut up now. Hawl 7:40, 3/5/2011 (UTC)

Update: I can say for sure that it was in October. I can't believe I missed this before: "Most of the furs were like Jerome and his girlfriend, only having changed two months ago."Atapari 04:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Fanart Of The Changed

I just comissioned, as far as I know, the first ever Paradise Fanart. The art is Pokemon themed (Cause Pokemon Black's release is just around the corner), but the picture is of Iris (formely Cale) and Gabriel, the characters from my upcoming story. I'm writing a story to go along with the picture. Will post a link to it as soon as its done. The non-fan service story about them is almost finished. Just needs a few more paragraphs and revisions. It's part 1 in a series. This is exciting for me, I've never actually finished a story before... Well outside of one Paradise story I wrote a few months ago and never posted.... But I never submitted that to anywhere outside of furaffinity cause I was personally ashamed of it. Once again I'd like to give a shoutout to... whoever the real life Robert Hallman is, Charles Matthias, and Jon Buck for encouraging me to return to story writing and the furry fandom. (If you wanna read what I have so far of what I wrote, just type "Weird Girly Boy" in the search engine) - Hawl, 08:00, 3/5/2011, (UTC)

The Art's done, the story is awaiting an ending. Due to the Pokemon Crossover Nature, this story is incredibly non-cannon (Think Cascade Failure or The Future Is Paradise) and as a result never happened. These characters are from an upcoming series called "Paradisian Perspectives" which is a Paradise Mini-Series. The one in the front is "Gabriel Locke" and the one in the back is "Iris Vinole", though she was born "Cale Vinole" (TG'd) I'll add them to the cast page when I finish "A Normal Type Of Day". I'd like to note that Iris, like most TG-Changed does not usually wear feminine clothing (and continues not to after Tall Tales, for comfort reasons) the sundress is merely something the artist decided to add though it is referenced in the story. I would like to repeat, POKEMON DO NOT EXIST IN PARADISE! THIS STORY ISN'T CANNON! - Drawn by a close personal friend, comissioned by me. (Story coming before the weekend ends) Hawl, 5:53PM, 3/17/2011 (EST)

Shed vs Cut Fur

One of the lines in one of MatthiasRat's stories gave me an idea for one of my own. The shared content is very small (an offhand line, never again mentioned in one, a small plot point with little impact on the plot in the other) and I'm asking him for permission now, but I also want to make sure that what I am thinking of is possible in the Paradise universe. I know that shedding fur is always a problem with the Changed, but I have also seen scenes (like where Eiric's Dr. Clay sends some fur—deliberately cut—to be tested, and the results indicate normal human hair. Is this something that has been established in the world, or can I have fur cut from one of my Changed appear to be animal fur to the non-Changed? Thanks! - RunsWithFurs 09:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never really nailed down the rules here, but it's reasonable to assume the RDF isn't completely consistent. It's the same way with footprints. A lot depends on context, some condition that shed fur needs to be hidden. It's really dependent on what your story requires, when it comes down to it. --Buck 01:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification; I thought that it would be something like that. I will be using visible fur for my story, then; what I am thinking of is not strictly necessary, but I do think that it will add a bit of depth to the character. - RunsWithFurs 05:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Question on the time period

I was reading through the universe rules, and noticed (again, though this is the first time I remembered to follow up) that you ask us to submit any stories that take place pre-2001 to you. I am currently intending to set my story in that time period—somewhere in the mid/late 1990's—and am wondering how you would like us to send stories to you, once I get something written. Though I could set it later, I want my characters to be rather isolated, and, while the setting lends itself well to geographic isolation, low overall numbers would also be nice. Finally, I just wanted to make sure that it was all right for me to write a Paradise story; I realized that I never actually asked. Sorry! - RunsWithFurs 06:06, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, nobody has to ask me if they can write a Paradise story. Just tell me what your overall plans are. You don't have to submit the whole story to me first--I tend not to get to them. --Buck 06:46, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll probably wait a bit longer before saying anything, as my outline is not quite finalized yet. Main points, though: the main character visits relative's farm in early August. Change strikes while still on farm; aunt revealed to have previously changed. Main character stays with relative to get used to new form (neither knows of the network). As I said, this could be placed at practically any point on the timeline, but I find it seems to "click" better earlier. I apoligize if this is not the best way to run it by you, and if it is not enough information. I would be happy to give you a more in-depth outline, through whatever method you want, once it settles. Thanks again for putting up with me! - RunsWithFurs 23:48, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


Would any intelligent beings elsewhere in the universe be affected by the change eventually? Of course, the fractal thing does make it so that it would be a LOOOOONG time after the Earth changes finish... Maine Cat 21:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
The answer is yes, they would. But I don't plan on introducing any aliens into this setting for the foreseeable future. --Buck 16:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

It's The Most Transformational Time, Of The Year!

August 16th? How we all feeling today? I'm healthy as a horse sadly, no... not a Healthy Horse, a healthy human. *looks in his boxers* Male too....

Oh well.. *tucks a Victoria's Secret bag back into the closet*

Maybe next year :P

The Blind and the RDF

So I was thinking about the change and how it would affect the disabled and such, and through the thoughts, I came to a realization... the blind may be able to naturally pierce the veil somewhat! Two factors come into this. First, a blind man is BLIND. The visual disguise of the RDF that makes a person look like they always looked has NO EFFECT, a blind person relying on touch. Second, it's generally said of the blind (and deaf) that with one sense out of comission, the other four senses become more acute and sensitive to make up for it, meaning they have more of a chance of feeling the hidden fur or claws. Now admittedly, people don't touch each other as much as they see each other unless they're shaking hands or something, but this COULD be an interesting hook for a story, don't you think?--Chessrook44 01:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It could work if someone shook hands with a fur, and then got curious from there... I don't plan on doing anything with Paradise outside of the Perspective Series, but if anyone wants to go for it I encourage them strongly too.--Hawl

Fanart Section

I think we should consider adding a Fanart section....

I've comissoned a lot of Paradise pictures and there's starting to build up

For those who want to see the ones that exist so far

CM And Jan (Alone/Building) -

Iris Vinole (Perspectives, WARNING NSFW) -

Iris and Hugh (Perspectives) -

Cale Vinole and Gabrielle Locke/GL (Perspectives, Joke Picture) -

Iris and Gabriel (Perspectives, Drawn for a Non-Canon Paradise Story) -

Plus if the series became more visual it would attract more readers

Are monotremes okay?

I had this very interesting idea of a character who (SPOILER ALERT!) is pregnant when she catches the Sleeping Sickness and becomes a platypus. How would all this play out, and could I use this animal? Sivle (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2017 (CDT)

Jon Buck and the Future of Paradise

Hey guys. So I've only just created my account here on Shifti, but I've read and been a fan of the Paradise universe for the last few years. I've been considering writing a story set in this universe, however, there is one thing I'm unsure of... After looking into Jon Buck's history on the site, I've been unable to find any activity from him since 2014. Is Jon Buck still around on this site? Or has he moved on?

Welcome to Shifti! First of all, it would be very helpful if you signed talk page contributions (easily done with four tildes: ~~~~). Secondly, Jon Buck has contributed to recently-published stories in the FreeRIDErs setting. If you're concerned with getting his permission for something, you might be able to reach him through Robotech Master or Jetfire, his FreeRIDErs collaborators. --Proginoskes (talk) 22:29, 6 April 2019 (CDT)
Aha! Thank you so much for the info! I will most certainly take that into mind when I begin writing my story! I appreciate the assitance! ~~~~Lokoman82delta 15:57, 6 April 2019 (MST)
I'm also a big fan of this universe, and enjoy coming back to it every now and again. If I was a better writer (or a writer at all) I'd consider contributing to it too, but I always find myself pondering bigger questions... like what the world looks like now, in 2019, with 50% of the population due to be Changed in just under four months. What kind of society has developed since the 2012 "bubbles" field failures? And most importantly, did Joey and AT ever get together?!! :D CNash (talk) 03:21, 27 April 2019 (CDT):
Heh. Totally! Some of those questions have already been answered, if I remember correctly... I don't quite remember where I read it, but Jon Buck stated that once the RDF failed, life proceeded somewhat like it had before it failed, just with the common knowledge that the world was slowly becoming furry. It wasn't uncommon for people to "call in furry" to work or whatever and take a few days to adjust. If you've got any ideas for Paradise stories, I'd love for you to contact me and share them! I'd probably be willing to give writing them a shot. Lokoman82delta (talk) 11:36, 27 April 2019 (CDT)