Talk:Unpresentable Heroes - Revision history

Trismegistus Shandy: /* On ''deus ex machina'' */

2008-07-07T16:03:39Z

On ''deus ex machina''

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	:: There is the whole "recognizing the tropes" bit going on Jetfire - most definitely. But more is that the perfect "Mask" was chosen — so either A) there was more known about the Aliens than was revealed to Nat or B) old fashioned dumb luck won the day. But it's neither — there are precog's at work. Nothing wrong with that — and in this case it's only used as the reason that particular pair of masks were called in. However, the use of precogs in superhero fiction is usually done solely as a cover for any Deus-Ex that the reader might notice.		:: There is the whole "recognizing the tropes" bit going on Jetfire - most definitely. But more is that the perfect "Mask" was chosen — so either A) there was more known about the Aliens than was revealed to Nat or B) old fashioned dumb luck won the day. But it's neither — there are precog's at work. Nothing wrong with that — and in this case it's only used as the reason that particular pair of masks were called in. However, the use of precogs in superhero fiction is usually done solely as a cover for any Deus-Ex that the reader might notice.

			::: And yet the precognition is mentioned in the very first scene. A ''deus'' is not ''ex machina'' unless it shows up late in the story, out of left field, without foreshadowing or justification.

			::: ''Deus ex machina'', is, it seems to me, the opposite of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_Gun Chekhov's Gun] -- where, instead of showing a gun on the mantelpiece in the first act before having some character fire it in a later act, you have a character pull a gun out of his ass and fire it without ever having established that he's the sort to carry a gun or know how to use it. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 12:03, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

	:: One of the more serious problems is that the dialog doesn't feel specific to the characters — a difficult problem to get around, because there is, really, just one person in the conversation. Another is something that works itself out as you learn more as an author – the flow and feel of the exposition. I can't give you any help with either — I struggle with the first one and the second one is why I'm not more prolific. (literally - if a part of a story doesn't feel like it's flowing properly for me I throw away that part and start writing it all over again)		:: One of the more serious problems is that the dialog doesn't feel specific to the characters — a difficult problem to get around, because there is, really, just one person in the conversation. Another is something that works itself out as you learn more as an author – the flow and feel of the exposition. I can't give you any help with either — I struggle with the first one and the second one is why I'm not more prolific. (literally - if a part of a story doesn't feel like it's flowing properly for me I throw away that part and start writing it all over again)

			::: Yes, I recognize that's a problem; I think I'm getting gradually better at it but I still have a long way to go. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 12:03, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

	:: I've learned that both of the above problems — among uncountable others — are best solved by finding a good and reliable editor. I'm grateful I've found one for my short stories.		:: I've learned that both of the above problems — among uncountable others — are best solved by finding a good and reliable editor. I'm grateful I've found one for my short stories.
	:: -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 03:34, 5 July 2008 (EDT)		:: -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 03:34, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

ShadowWolf at 07:34, 5 July 2008

2008-07-05T07:34:26Z

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	: There were a few rougher spots that could use a bit more smoothing. (The start of this story for example just felt rough and awkward, like the phone call), but nothing that made it unreadable. The powers in general came across as consistent which is good in a Heroes story.		: There were a few rougher spots that could use a bit more smoothing. (The start of this story for example just felt rough and awkward, like the phone call), but nothing that made it unreadable. The powers in general came across as consistent which is good in a Heroes story.
	--[[User:Jetfire\|Jetfire]] 10:31, 4 July 2008 (EDT)		--[[User:Jetfire\|Jetfire]] 10:31, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

			:: There is the whole "recognizing the tropes" bit going on Jetfire - most definitely. But more is that the perfect "Mask" was chosen — so either A) there was more known about the Aliens than was revealed to Nat or B) old fashioned dumb luck won the day. But it's neither — there are precog's at work. Nothing wrong with that — and in this case it's only used as the reason that particular pair of masks were called in. However, the use of precogs in superhero fiction is usually done solely as a cover for any Deus-Ex that the reader might notice.

			:: One of the more serious problems is that the dialog doesn't feel specific to the characters — a difficult problem to get around, because there is, really, just one person in the conversation. Another is something that works itself out as you learn more as an author – the flow and feel of the exposition. I can't give you any help with either — I struggle with the first one and the second one is why I'm not more prolific. (literally - if a part of a story doesn't feel like it's flowing properly for me I throw away that part and start writing it all over again)

			:: I've learned that both of the above problems — among uncountable others — are best solved by finding a good and reliable editor. I'm grateful I've found one for my short stories.
			:: -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 03:34, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Jetfire: /* On ''deus ex machina'' */

2008-07-04T14:31:00Z

On ''deus ex machina''

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:31, 4 July 2008
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	I spent about seven years on the first draft of this story (very off and on, of course) and another year doing a couple of major revisions; I'm not averse to doing another such major revision if I'm confident it would make the story a lot better. But your comments so far, though good storytelling advice in general, still haven't helped me figure out what specific things I would need to change to make this story better. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 09:11, 4 July 2008 (EDT)		I spent about seven years on the first draft of this story (very off and on, of course) and another year doing a couple of major revisions; I'm not averse to doing another such major revision if I'm confident it would make the story a lot better. But your comments so far, though good storytelling advice in general, still haven't helped me figure out what specific things I would need to change to make this story better. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 09:11, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

			:As Shadow implied, part of it is probably more from being fans of the genre and recognizing its tropes. Once the first alien was changed, the Hive-insect style alien was pretty obvious, which lead to the story's conclusion. Getting around that would be virtually impossible though, so just has to be taken as is. (Granted you did get a nice twist in there with the eventual rescue; at the time it felt like you were leading towards a 'grateful Queen thankful for the help in usurping the power base' type of storyline. (Or it's companion storyline of 'the useful tool helping new Queen take power before being discarded')

			: As for the overall story arch you've got going, it's been going fine. Nothing glaringly has jumped out at me. A fairly standard and typical origin story, but nothing wrong with that. Nice to see Nat is trying to make amends in general too. And nice exploration of the overall implications of what Nat can do (especially in the 3rd story), but also a nice view of what speedsters could be like as well.

			: There were a few rougher spots that could use a bit more smoothing. (The start of this story for example just felt rough and awkward, like the phone call), but nothing that made it unreadable. The powers in general came across as consistent which is good in a Heroes story.
			--[[User:Jetfire\|Jetfire]] 10:31, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

Trismegistus Shandy: more on deus ex machina; are we using the term in the same sense?

2008-07-04T13:11:04Z

more on deus ex machina; are we using the term in the same sense?

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	::::Well... Deus Ex feelings are to be expected from stuff involving superhero's. However... The foreshadowing may just be because I've read so many stories that have a twist that I pick up on the smallest of clues. But it feels like you were working in the foreshadowing of the eventual twist with a heavy hand — like M. Night Shyamalan in "Signs". What is needed for good foreshadowing to work is for every hint to have more than one possible explanation. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 19:16, 2 July 2008 (EDT)		::::Well... Deus Ex feelings are to be expected from stuff involving superhero's. However... The foreshadowing may just be because I've read so many stories that have a twist that I pick up on the smallest of clues. But it feels like you were working in the foreshadowing of the eventual twist with a heavy hand — like M. Night Shyamalan in "Signs". What is needed for good foreshadowing to work is for every hint to have more than one possible explanation. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 19:16, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

			I'll go through the story again and consider the various clues, and whether they could be made more ambiguous, etc... probably not yet, but after I finish another story I'm working on. Without rereading the whole story, the clues I remember are:

			* Nat shows that he can change himself, not just others
			* Evidence, from his phone call with Will, that his relationship with his parents is a bit strained
			* Nat's initial reluctance to tell Zach about how he got his powers

			None of those seems too obvious or unambiguous to me right now, but maybe there's something else I've forgotten or overlooked. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 09:11, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

			== On ''deus ex machina'' ==

			I'm not sure I understand what you mean that "Deus Ex feelings are to be expected from stuff involving superhero's." Do you mean that it's a frequent failing committed by comics writers on a tight deadline, or that it's inherent in the genre, or what? It's easy to think of superhero stories with ''deus ex machina'' plot twists; fairly typical is the situation where one or more superheroes are fighting a villain they're totally outclassed by, and then a more powerful superhero (who's had no connection with the story so far) comes along, and kicks said villain's ass. Or, worse, when instead of a more powerful superhero, you have a godlike alien (again with no previous connection to the story) doing the ass-kicking; or when a superhero with one power suddenly discovers he has another, previously unknown power at the most critical moment (as in, e.g., ''Sky High'', though there it was foreshadowed enough that I don't think it counts as ''deus ex''). But, though unfortunately not uncommon, those twists are hardly endemic to the superhero genre; there are a lot of good superhero stories without such flaws. And I still can't see how that applies to this story, without a more specific example. E.g., if a third superhero had gone into the alien ship and pulled Nat & Zach's fat out of the fire, that would be ''deus ex machina''; or if Nat or Zach discovered a new superpower they didn't previously know they had; or if another set of aliens at war with the first set showed up... but how is it ''deus ex'' when Nat and Zach solve the alien problem using the powers they were established as having in the very first scene, plus some cleverness?

			I spent about seven years on the first draft of this story (very off and on, of course) and another year doing a couple of major revisions; I'm not averse to doing another such major revision if I'm confident it would make the story a lot better. But your comments so far, though good storytelling advice in general, still haven't helped me figure out what specific things I would need to change to make this story better. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 09:11, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

ShadowWolf at 23:16, 2 July 2008

2008-07-02T23:16:10Z

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	::: That's more specific, but still a little too vague to be useful. What specific plot twists do you have in mind as ''deus ex machina''? The point where Zach finds Nat again while teleporting all over the ship searching for him, or what?		::: That's more specific, but still a little too vague to be useful. What specific plot twists do you have in mind as ''deus ex machina''? The point where Zach finds Nat again while teleporting all over the ship searching for him, or what?
	::: And it might help me tone down the foreshadowing if you would point out exactly where you first realized how the story was going to end. I didn't mean it to come out of nowhere, but apparently the foreshadowing is too obvious at some point; where, I can't tell. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 10:30, 2 July 2008 (EDT)		::: And it might help me tone down the foreshadowing if you would point out exactly where you first realized how the story was going to end. I didn't mean it to come out of nowhere, but apparently the foreshadowing is too obvious at some point; where, I can't tell. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 10:30, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

			::::Well... Deus Ex feelings are to be expected from stuff involving superhero's. However... The foreshadowing may just be because I've read so many stories that have a twist that I pick up on the smallest of clues. But it feels like you were working in the foreshadowing of the eventual twist with a heavy hand — like M. Night Shyamalan in "Signs". What is needed for good foreshadowing to work is for every hint to have more than one possible explanation. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 19:16, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

Trismegistus Shandy: where exactly is the foreshadowing too obvious?

2008-07-02T14:30:56Z

where exactly is the foreshadowing too obvious?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:30, 2 July 2008
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	::Mostly it's the flow of the story and some points where there is a massive feeling of deus ex machina. You also telegraphed the twist at the end of the story pretty badly - it could be seen coming from close to the beginning. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 15:26, 30 June 2008 (EDT)		::Mostly it's the flow of the story and some points where there is a massive feeling of deus ex machina. You also telegraphed the twist at the end of the story pretty badly - it could be seen coming from close to the beginning. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 15:26, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

			::: That's more specific, but still a little too vague to be useful. What specific plot twists do you have in mind as ''deus ex machina''? The point where Zach finds Nat again while teleporting all over the ship searching for him, or what?
			::: And it might help me tone down the foreshadowing if you would point out exactly where you first realized how the story was going to end. I didn't mean it to come out of nowhere, but apparently the foreshadowing is too obvious at some point; where, I can't tell. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 10:30, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

ShadowWolf at 19:26, 30 June 2008

2008-06-30T19:26:03Z

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	:Thanks. What specific defects do you have in mind? Aside from the inherent implausibilities of the superpowers and the aliens' motivations; those seem like licensed absurdities of the superhero genre. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 14:17, 30 June 2008 (EDT)		:Thanks. What specific defects do you have in mind? Aside from the inherent implausibilities of the superpowers and the aliens' motivations; those seem like licensed absurdities of the superhero genre. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 14:17, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

			::Mostly it's the flow of the story and some points where there is a massive feeling of deus ex machina. You also telegraphed the twist at the end of the story pretty badly - it could be seen coming from close to the beginning. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 15:26, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Trismegistus Shandy: please be more specific, please?

2008-06-30T18:17:34Z

please be more specific, please?

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	This was a good read. I like the concept behind it and while the twist at the end wasn't much of a surprise, it was worth it. All the defects that detract from this story could be polished out with the help of a good editor. Adding it to [[ShadowWolfs Pack]] at 3 stars. [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 01:00, 10 May 2008 (EDT)		This was a good read. I like the concept behind it and while the twist at the end wasn't much of a surprise, it was worth it. All the defects that detract from this story could be polished out with the help of a good editor. Adding it to [[ShadowWolfs Pack]] at 3 stars. [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 01:00, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

			:Thanks. What specific defects do you have in mind? Aside from the inherent implausibilities of the superpowers and the aliens' motivations; those seem like licensed absurdities of the superhero genre. --[[User:Trismegistus Shandy\|Trismegistus Shandy]] 14:17, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

ShadowWolf: New page: This was a good read. I like the concept behind it and while the twist at the end wasn't much of a surprise, it was worth it. All the defects that detract from this story could be polished...

2008-05-10T05:00:23Z

New page: This was a good read. I like the concept behind it and while the twist at the end wasn't much of a surprise, it was worth it. All the defects that detract from this story could be polished...

New page

This was a good read. I like the concept behind it and while the twist at the end wasn't much of a surprise, it was worth it. All the defects that detract from this story could be polished out with the help of a good editor. Adding it to [[ShadowWolfs Pack]] at 3 stars. [[User:ShadowWolf|ShadowWolf]] 01:00, 10 May 2008 (EDT)