Talk:Three Minds 2.0 - Revision history

JoharaGuardian at 05:17, 28 May 2011

2011-05-28T05:17:44Z

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	:It works well when done well. The problem is that I couldn't tell the difference at all - it caused confusion on my part and had me thinking that the entire work was meant to be in First Person and the start was actually meant to be Third Omniscient. What I said above is to make sure its clear that you are changing the viewpoint for stylistic reasons and to have some clarity of difference between the viewpoints such that the reader doesn't become confused. :--[[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 22:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)		:It works well when done well. The problem is that I couldn't tell the difference at all - it caused confusion on my part and had me thinking that the entire work was meant to be in First Person and the start was actually meant to be Third Omniscient. What I said above is to make sure its clear that you are changing the viewpoint for stylistic reasons and to have some clarity of difference between the viewpoints such that the reader doesn't become confused. :--[[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 22:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

			::Real life has gotten hectic so I haven't had any editing time the past several days. I will work on improving the intro. I did a quick and dirty pov edit, which doesn't seem to meet standards. [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 05:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

ShadowWolf: /* First Report */ I wash my hands of this

2011-05-27T22:20:24Z

First Report: I wash my hands of this

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	I just feel the shift in narrative POV really hammers home the change in identity. It's been done in Xanadu before and to good effect! --[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 06:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)		I just feel the shift in narrative POV really hammers home the change in identity. It's been done in Xanadu before and to good effect! --[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 06:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

			:It works well when done well. The problem is that I couldn't tell the difference at all - it caused confusion on my part and had me thinking that the entire work was meant to be in First Person and the start was actually meant to be Third Omniscient. What I said above is to make sure its clear that you are changing the viewpoint for stylistic reasons and to have some clarity of difference between the viewpoints such that the reader doesn't become confused. :--[[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 22:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Alex Warlorn at 06:55, 27 May 2011

2011-05-27T06:55:46Z

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	IF a POV Shift is going to be used, be clear about the tense both before trying it. If I can become confused by the text, then the tense isn't clear and there is work that needs to be done. Otherwise the tense-shift will confuse people and that is never a good thing. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 00:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)		IF a POV Shift is going to be used, be clear about the tense both before trying it. If I can become confused by the text, then the tense isn't clear and there is work that needs to be done. Otherwise the tense-shift will confuse people and that is never a good thing. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 00:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)


			I just feel the shift in narrative POV really hammers home the change in identity. It's been done in Xanadu before and to good effect! --[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 06:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

ShadowWolf: /* Editing/Critique */

2011-05-25T00:18:37Z

Editing/Critique

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	I agree, a POV shift at the merger is a good dramatic touch. --[[User:Alveric\|Alveric]] 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)		I agree, a POV shift at the merger is a good dramatic touch. --[[User:Alveric\|Alveric]] 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

			IF a POV Shift is going to be used, be clear about the tense both before trying it. If I can become confused by the text, then the tense isn't clear and there is work that needs to be done. Otherwise the tense-shift will confuse people and that is never a good thing. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 00:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Alveric: /* First Report */

2011-05-24T17:29:24Z

First Report

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	Considering it starts out with Three Minds, and then has to be fuse into one person. Switching from a third POV to a first POV works IMHO.		Considering it starts out with Three Minds, and then has to be fuse into one person. Switching from a third POV to a first POV works IMHO.
	--[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 17:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)		--[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 17:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

			I agree, a POV shift at the merger is a good dramatic touch. --[[User:Alveric\|Alveric]] 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Alex Warlorn at 17:22, 24 May 2011

2011-05-24T17:22:45Z

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	It was meant to be third person, though I admit that probably doesn't work too well for the intro. [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)		It was meant to be third person, though I admit that probably doesn't work too well for the intro. [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

			Considering it starts out with Three Minds, and then has to be fuse into one person. Switching from a third POV to a first POV works IMHO.
			--[[User:Alex Warlorn\|Alex Warlorn]] 17:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Alveric at 17:58, 23 May 2011

2011-05-23T17:58:08Z

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	I got tired of think of what to do with the 300 is why I just turned them all into Kyhyce lol Btw I use 'he' simply for writing convenience traditionally when a gender wasn't specified 'he' was used as a rule of thumb. That doesn't exactly apply here. Trying use the e-he, em-him, es-his, er-her, e-she, etc gets clunky and looks messy. (E rode es bike to visit es gramdma to get er some cake. E got cake for emself as well as er.) I am actually glad you noticed the Spock like effect, not that I had him in mind, unemotionally expressive was what I was going for. Calm to the point of madness lol [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:42, 23 May 2011 (UTC)		I got tired of think of what to do with the 300 is why I just turned them all into Kyhyce lol Btw I use 'he' simply for writing convenience traditionally when a gender wasn't specified 'he' was used as a rule of thumb. That doesn't exactly apply here. Trying use the e-he, em-him, es-his, er-her, e-she, etc gets clunky and looks messy. (E rode es bike to visit es gramdma to get er some cake. E got cake for emself as well as er.) I am actually glad you noticed the Spock like effect, not that I had him in mind, unemotionally expressive was what I was going for. Calm to the point of madness lol [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:42, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

			Oh, thank goodness you aren't doing the e, es, er stuff. It's hard to pull off. If you're going to listen to anyone, listen to ShadowWolf. --[[User:Alveric\|Alveric]] 17:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

	== Villains and Conflict ==		== Villains and Conflict ==

JoharaGuardian: /* First Report */

2011-05-23T16:59:57Z

First Report

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	Hope this helps a bit - I'll be back later with more. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 16:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)		Hope this helps a bit - I'll be back later with more. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 16:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

			It was meant to be third person, though I admit that probably doesn't work too well for the intro. [[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

ShadowWolf: fix a typo in the markup

2011-05-23T16:50:15Z

fix a typo in the markup

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	:Feels nervous[[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)		:Feels nervous[[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

	==First Report===		===First Report===

	Okay, since I'm starting to get hand-cramps while writing notes about the critique long-hand I've decided to stop about halfway through the opening because it's become somewhat obvious to me that, like most new writers, you haven't fully grasped how to get a story rolling without data-dumps and similar mistakes.		Okay, since I'm starting to get hand-cramps while writing notes about the critique long-hand I've decided to stop about halfway through the opening because it's become somewhat obvious to me that, like most new writers, you haven't fully grasped how to get a story rolling without data-dumps and similar mistakes.

ShadowWolf: /* Editing/Critique */ add a bit of a critique/example

2011-05-23T16:48:52Z

Editing/Critique: add a bit of a critique/example

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:48, 23 May 2011
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	:Feels nervous[[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)		:Feels nervous[[User:JoharaGuardian\|JoharaGuardian]] 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

			==First Report===

			Okay, since I'm starting to get hand-cramps while writing notes about the critique long-hand I've decided to stop about halfway through the opening because it's become somewhat obvious to me that, like most new writers, you haven't fully grasped how to get a story rolling without data-dumps and similar mistakes.

			So...

			#) You've got a problem with repetition of sentence structure in at least the first paragraph and a problem with always referring to Sebastian by name instead of shortening it out to provide flavor and variation.
			#) Instead of showing the actions and providing something that can grab and hold the attention of the reader you open with a (sorry!) poorly done data dump that lacks a proper flowing feel to it.
			#) You've got the viewpoint skewed a bit - in the opening it reads closer to a third-person omniscient viewpoint but it transitions rapidly to a first-person viewpoint. This isn't always a mistake, but I'm positive it isn't what you were going for.

			Now... On a whim I decided to rewrite the whole "flashback" opening you did as an example of pacing, flow and how to make a data-dump work as part of a story.

			Example:

			:Looking over the wonderfully crafted costume and its related clothing I smiled. Just a year ago it was nothing but a dream and circumstances seemed set to keep it that way. Economically I'd been lower-middle class (and struggling a little to maintain that level) because mental-health non-profits don't pay well - not even the Therapists like me.

			:But then, one day, I'd had a couple extra dollars in my pocket and the jackpot on the lottery caught my eye. Deciding it couldn't hurt, I plunked down the cash and asked for a quick-pick. Later that night I thought I was going to have a heart-attack when the drawing happened and the numbers lined up with the ones on the ticket I'd bought. Yes - I was the sole winner (though I didn't know nobody else had won, yet) of a huge, multi-million dollar jackpot.

			:No, I didn't go and immediately commission the costume on the mannikins in front of me. My first move was to donate almost a quarter of my winnings to various childrens and mental-health charities. Then I went and found the right people - Hollywood practical effects specialists and other specialists in high-grade costumes with animated features - to make my dream a reality. It had taken them months to make it and get the bugs out of the mechanical aspects of it, but it had been finished in time for me to wear it to Xanadu.

			-----------

			That should give you an idea of what I'm talking about as far as flavor, flow and pacing goes. And yes, it doesn't use the characters name at all - it's a first-person viewpoint - ie: from inside a characters head - and nobody uses their name in their own thoughts. (Except in specific circumstances).

			Hope this helps a bit - I'll be back later with more. -- [[User:ShadowWolf\|ShadowWolf]] 16:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)